A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Dmytro » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:50 pm

Speaking of Patisambhidamagga - here's how "ekaggatta"is explained in Patisambhidamagga-Atthakattha:

"Tattha cittassa ekaggatāti nānārammaṇavikkhepābhāvato ekaṃ ārammaṇaṃ aggaṃ uttamaṃ assāti ekaggo, ekaggassa bhāvo ekaggatā."

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 1.230

"Here the 'ekaggatā' of the mind is the state (bhāvo) when one thing is predominant (ekaggo). One thing is predominant when there's no perplexity (vikkhepa) on multiple bases and one basis (ārammaṇa) is predominant (agga) and preeminent (uttama)."

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550
User avatar
Dmytro
 
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Alexei » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:49 pm

Sylvester wrote:
Even though there is no comprehension within any jhana, one is certainly not in a trance. One's mindfulness is greatly increased to a level of sharpness that is truly incredible. One is immensely aware. ...


His teacher Ajahn Chah said:

    With right samādhi, no matter what level of calm is reached, there is awareness. There is full mindfulness and clear comprehension. This is the samādhi which can give rise to wisdom, one cannot get lost in it. Practisers should understand this well. You can't do without this awareness, it must be present from beginning to end. This kind of samādhi has no danger.

And also:

    Sampajañña is the awareness that "now I am doing such and such." We observe the in and out breathing with sati and sampajañña.
    ... and then there is sampajañña, the awareness that "now I am walking," "I am lying down," "I am experiencing such and such a mood." With these two things, sati and sampajañña, we can know our minds in the present moment.

If we understand sampajañña in this way than there isn't sampajañña in Ajahn Brahm's jhana:

    Thus in Jhana, not only is there no sense of time, but also there is no comprehension of what is going on! At the time, one will not even know what Jhana one is in.

But according to suttas sampajañña is necessary for jhana:

    And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert (sampajañña), and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.
Last edited by Alexei on Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Alexei
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Nyana » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:17 pm

Sylvester wrote:befuddled and unable to respond.

It's quite simply a case of keeping in mind that there is no point in discussing Theravāda dhamma with people who have no interest in Theravāda dhamma other than to try to disparage and attempt to misrepresent the teachings found in the Tipiṭaka. I don't consider what Ven. Brahmavamso and Ven. Sujato are teaching to be Theravāda in any sense, and Ven. Brahmavamso's "jhāna" isn't even Buddhadhamma. Dmytro has already accurately characterized this:

Dmytro wrote:The reason I put this to your attention is that I meet with Brahmavamso's Russian followers with such deluded notions.
The practice is masked under the seemingly authoritative terms like "letting go" and "nirodha-samapatti", but actually leads to a meditative blackout, with no development of wisdom (panna).

The "letting go" Brahmavamso talks about is slipping without any resistance into the passion for "beautiful representation" (subha-nimitta).


All the best,

Geoff
Nyana
 
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Alexei » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:36 pm

I find some Ajahn Brahm's teachings helpful and esteem his life experience in general, but I can't understand why Ajahn Brahm calls himself student of Ajahn Chah since their approaches to meditation are quite different. For instance, Ajahn Chah didn't say that nimitta is required. Also Ajahn Chah's description of 5 senses activity in jhana is precisely conform to "sutta style jhanas":

    When the mind enters absorption it calms down and is stilled to a level where it is at its most subtle and skilful. Even if you experience sense impingement from the outside, such as sounds and physical sensations, it remains external and is unable to disturb the mind. You might hear a sound, but it won’t disturb your concentration. There is the hearing of the sound, but the experience is as if you don’t hear anything. There is awareness of the impingement but it’s as if you are not aware. This is because you let go. The mind lets go automatically. Concentration is so deep and firm that you let go of attachment to sense impingement quite naturally.

Ajahn Brahm:

    Another strange quality that distinguishes Jhana from all other experiences is that within Jhana all the five senses are totally shut down. One cannot see, one cannot hear, one cannot smell, taste nor feel touch.

Indeed strange.
User avatar
Alexei
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby morning mist » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:45 pm

Hi all travelers on the path,

Nanna wrote: "MN 127 describes the expansive liberation of mind (mahaggatā cetovimutti), which is a synonym for the mastery of jhāna"


The sutta itself did not say that mahaggata cetovimutti is a synonym for the mastery of jhana.

According to MN 43 and MN 127, there are various types of of Cetovimutti. The characteristics of various types are not all the same.
There are :

1. Neither-Pleasant-nor-Unpleasant cetovimutti( adukkhamasukhaya cetovimuttiya)
2. Exalted Cetovimutti (Mahaggatam Cetovimutti , mahaggatam: lofty, become great)

3. Boundless cetovimutti (appamana cetovimutti),
4. Nothingness cetovimutti ( akincanna cetovimutti)
5. Signless cetovimutti (animittaya cetovimuttiya)
6. Voidness cetovimutti ( sunnata cetovimutti)


While the the Adukkhamasukhaya cetovimutti (1) refers to the four Jhanas found in Samma Samadhi, the other ones do not, including the Mahaggatam Cetovimutti. "And what is the way of explanation by which these states are different in meaning & different in name? "

1.Adukkhamasukhaya cetovimutti :

"Friend, how many conditions are there for the attainment of the Neither-Pleasant-nor-Unpleasant cetovimutti ( adukkhamasukhaya cetovimuttiya) ?”
"Friend, there are four conditions for the attainment of the neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant cetovimutti. Here, a bhikkhu abandons pleasantness and unpleasantness, and with the setting down of previous joy and displeasure there is neither pain nor pleasure. And with mindfulness fully purified by equanimity, he enters and abides in the fourth jhana. These are the four conditions for the attainment of the neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant cetovimutti ( adukkhamasukhaya cetovimuttiya). -MN 43


2. Exalted Cetovimutti (Mahaggatam Cetovimutti , mahaggatam: lofty, become great)

“And what, householder, is the exalted cetovimutti (mahaggata cetovimutti) ? Here a bhikkhu abides resolved upon an area the size of the root of one tree, pervading it as exalted: this is called the exalted cetovimutti (mahaggata cetovimutti). Here a bhikkhu abides resolved upon an area the size of one village, pervading it as exalted…an area the size of two or three villages…an area the size of one major kingdom…an area the size of two or three major kingdoms…an area the size of the earth bounded by the ocean, pervading it as exalted: this too is called the exalted cetovimutti (mahaggata cetovimutti). It is in this way, householder, that it can be understood how these states are different in meaning and different in name."- MN 127


3.Boundless cetovimutti - This refers to the Four Brahmaviharas

“Here a bhikkhu abides with a mind imbued with loving kindness ( metta) pervading one direction, likewise the second, likewise the third, and likewise the fourth direction, above, below , around, and everywhere, to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, expansive, boundless, without hostility and without ill will.
“ He abides with a mind imbued with compassion ( karuna)…..”
“ He abides with a mind imbued with altruistic joy ( karuna, sympathy in other’s welfare)…..”
“ He abides with a mind imbued with equanimity ( upekkha)pervading one direction, likewise the second, likewise the third, and likewise the fourth direction, above, below , around, and everywhere, to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with equanimity, abundant, expansive, boundless, without hostility and without ill will. This is called the limitless awareness-release.”

4. Nothingness cetovimutti
"And what is the Nothingness cetovimutti ? Here a bhikkhu completely passes beyond the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness , and aware that there is ’ nothing', he abides in the Sphere of Nothingness. This is called the Nothingness cetovimutti.

5. Signless cetovimutti
"And what is the Signless cetovimutti ? Here a bhikkhu not attending to all signs, a bhikkhu enters and abides in the signless concentration of mind.This is called the Signless cetovimutti .

6. Voidness cetovimutti
"And what is the Voidness cetovimutti ? Here the bhikkhu gone to the forest, to the root of a tree or to an empty house reflects: ‘ This is empty of a self or of anything belonging to a self. This is called the Voidness cetovimutti.

The Similarities Between Various types of Cetovimutti ?


“Here, friend, passion (raga) is a limiting factor (pamanakarano) , aversion ( dosa) is a limiting factor, delusion ( moha) is a limiting factor.
“In a bhikkhu whose mind is free from intoxication/ the taints ( khinasavassa) , these have been abandoned, pulled out with the roots, made like a palm stump, deprived of the conditions to arise again.




Nanna wrote: Paṭisambhidāmagga Yuganaddhakathā is the canonical commentary on this sutta, where the coupling of samatha and vipassanā are said to occur together upon attainment of the noble path. This is the same as what is presented in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa Lokuttarakusala Suddhikapaṭipadā.


But that is the commentary, also when the commentary says together it means accompanying each other, not insight Within serenity.

By the way, let us focus on the suttas it self and not the commentaries or subcommentaries.

Metta,
with metta,
morning mist
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Kenshou » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:56 am

Sylvester wrote:, but you've not answered the objection how there can be dhamma-vicaya without vitakka-vicara.
Come to think of it I can't seem to recall an explanation for this.

I have gotten the impression that the primary function of dhamma-vicaya is recognizing the skillfulness or unskillfulness of dhammas, so that they can be attended to properly, aka right effort. I suspect that, at the point that samadhi has been stablized (which necessitates the abandonment of unskillful qualities and the development of wholesome ones), dhamma-vicaya has already served it's function and does not need to be maintained.

Or if not, I wonder if full-blown vitakka-vicara is really necessary when it comes to simply recognizing a quality as skillful or not. From personal experience I would daresay that it's quite possible to recognize a dhamma without jumping off into thought-fabrication, though I realize an appeal to experience is hardly objective. But then again, when it comes to jhāna, unskillful qualities have already ceased, for the moment, so what purpose would there be for that activity anyway?

I don't really know, merely some vitakka-sankharā.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Sylvester » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:02 am

Alexei wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
Even though there is no comprehension within any jhana, one is certainly not in a trance. One's mindfulness is greatly increased to a level of sharpness that is truly incredible. One is immensely aware. ...


His teacher Ajahn Chah said:

    With right samādhi, no matter what level of calm is reached, there is awareness. There is full mindfulness and clear comprehension. This is the samādhi which can give rise to wisdom, one cannot get lost in it. Practisers should understand this well. You can't do without this awareness, it must be present from beginning to end. This kind of samādhi has no danger.

And also:

    Sampajañña is the awareness that "now I am doing such and such." We observe the in and out breathing with sati and sampajañña.
    ... and then there is sampajañña, the awareness that "now I am walking," "I am lying down," "I am experiencing such and such a mood." With these two things, sati and sampajañña, we can know our minds in the present moment.

If we understand sampajañña in this way than there isn't sampajañña in Ajahn Brahm's jhana:

    Thus in Jhana, not only is there no sense of time, but also there is no comprehension of what is going on! At the time, one will not even know what Jhana one is in.

But according to suttas sampajañña is necessary for jhana:

    And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert (sampajañña), and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.


Hi Alexei

I absolutely agree with what Ajahn Chah says here, but I have a different take on reading Ajahn Chah. In one of the anthologies of his talks, the editorial committee made a remark about his teaching style -

Ajahn Chah's wonderfully simple style of teaching can be deceptive. It is often only after we have heard something many times that suddenly our minds are ripe and somehow the teaching takes on a much deeper meaning. His skillful means in tailoring his explanations of Dhamma to time and place, and to the understanding and sensitivity of his audience, was marvelous to see. Sometimes on paper though, it can make him seem inconsistent or even self-contradictory!


Another editorial comment elsewhere (which I cannot trace now) suggests that the various listeners to one of Ajahn Chah's dessanas each left with very individual reactions and understandings of Ajahn's message, and each felt that Ajahn was specifically directing that dessana to the particular listener. Such was the magic of his teaching style. So, I would be careful in interpreting Ajahn Chah as using a universalist method, versus one that was particularly tailored to one or more specific readers.

The sati and sampajanna which Ajahn Chah was speaking of in the above link was quite specific to "mindfulness of body in the body", based on the examples that he cited. That is the locus classicus for kayanupassana, but what happens in jhana? Does Ajahn Chah indicate what quality of sampajanna is present in jhana? He does, at p 190 of Food for the Heart here-

http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=jO_ ... &q&f=false

Although a number of highly esteemed scholars have written descriptions of the first, second, third, and fourth jhāna, what's written is merely external information. If the mind actually enters these states of profound peace, it doesn't know anything about those written descriptions. It knows, but what it knows isn't the same as the theory we study. If the scholars try to clutch their theory and drag it into their meditation, sitting and pondering, ''Hmmm...what could this be? Is this first jhāna yet?'' There! The peace is shattered, and they don't experience anything of real value. And why is that? Because there is desire, and once there's craving what happens? The mind simultaneously withdraws out of the meditation.


Compare that to Ajahn Brahm's explanation for why comprehension is absent in Jhana. He says that comprehension is based on perspective giving comparison. I think what Ajahn Brahm says here is in line with his teacher's understanding of jhana as peace, where no measuring takes place.

The question is, do the suttas' reference to "sampajanna" point to one state/phenomenon that is uniform and homogeneous across all mental states, or is the jhanic sampajanna of a qualitative difference to pre-jhanic mind states? To me, there must be, as the 2 similes for 2nd Jhana and 3rd Jhana clearly differentiate the depth of the intensity of the experience of sukha within the 2 jhanas. IMHO, the similes serve to indicate that the intensity of sati and sampajanna in 3rd Jhana is deeper than sati and sampajanna within 2nd Jhana. How one paṭisaṃvedeti sukha as part of the "gradual cessation" depends on how much energy goes to just "experiencing and awareness" versus "experiencing and commenting".
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Sylvester » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:49 am

Alexei wrote:I find some Ajahn Brahm's teachings helpful and esteem his life experience in general, but I can't understand why Ajahn Brahm calls himself student of Ajahn Chah since their approaches to meditation are quite different. For instance, Ajahn Chah didn't say that nimitta is required. Also Ajahn Chah's description of 5 senses activity in jhana is precisely conform to "sutta style jhanas":

    When the mind enters absorption it calms down and is stilled to a level where it is at its most subtle and skilful. Even if you experience sense impingement from the outside, such as sounds and physical sensations, it remains external and is unable to disturb the mind. You might hear a sound, but it won’t disturb your concentration. There is the hearing of the sound, but the experience is as if you don’t hear anything. There is awareness of the impingement but it’s as if you are not aware. This is because you let go. The mind lets go automatically. Concentration is so deep and firm that you let go of attachment to sense impingement quite naturally.

Ajahn Brahm:

    Another strange quality that distinguishes Jhana from all other experiences is that within Jhana all the five senses are totally shut down. One cannot see, one cannot hear, one cannot smell, taste nor feel touch.

Indeed strange.



Again, I would just note that Ajahn Chah is not like the scholar monks - he does not employ the same terms consistently.

There is another talk (can't find the citation now) where Ajahn Chah discusses the disappearance of the body when practising Anapanasati. His famous Tucho Potthila story about closing off of the 5 senses to leave only the mind also comes to mind.

I think it may be more productive not to say "precise conformity to sutta style jhanas". The absorption model proponents do not need to rely on the Vsm for the theory that jhanas are bereft of the 5 sense objects. The suttas themselves so say, if you just interpret "vivicc'eva kamehi" (quite secluded from the kāmā) plainly and literally. The problem with many new Buddhists (not referring to you!) brought up on a diet of ranting against the Commentarial presentation of Jhanas is that the discursive model proponents themselves are not reading "vivicc'eva kamehi" simply, but they resort to the Abhidhamma Vibhanga's definition of this term instead -

"Vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehī"ti tattha katame kāmā? Chando kāmo, rāgo kāmo, chandarāgo kāmo, saṅkappo kāmo, rāgo kāmo, saṅkapparāgo kāmo— ime vuccanti "kāmā".


This doctrinal misundertanding is actually not permitted, IMHO, by other suttas that clearly state that jhanic sukha is niramisa, and kamasukha is "base". The very idea that in jhana one can have a pleasant physical feel of the body conflicts with how the suttas plainly state that the the meditator is secluded from the kāmā. Since the kāmā include the kamaguna and pleasant tactility is one of the kamaguna, this clearly conflicts with the suttas' kāmā seclusion formula in the 1st Jhana pericope.

Something from the Anupubbanirodhasutta, AN 9.(30?)-

Navayime, bhikkhave, anupubbanirodhā. Katame nava? Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa kāmasaññā niruddhā hoti; dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vitakkavicārā niruddhā honti; tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa pīti niruddhā hoti; catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti .....

Bhikkhus, these nine are successive cessations. What nine?

To one attained to the first higher state of mind sensual perceptions cease. To one attained to the second higher state of mind, thoughts and discursive thoughts cease. To one attained to the third higher state of mind joy ceases. To one attained to the fourth higher state of mind in breaths and out breaths cease.


:anjali:
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Alexei » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:51 am

Hi Sylvester

Sylvester wrote:
Although a number of highly esteemed scholars have written descriptions of the first, second, third, and fourth jhāna, what's written is merely external information. If the mind actually enters these states of profound peace, it doesn't know anything about those written descriptions. It knows, but what it knows isn't the same as the theory we study. If the scholars try to clutch their theory and drag it into their meditation, sitting and pondering, ''Hmmm...what could this be? Is this first jhāna yet?'' There! The peace is shattered, and they don't experience anything of real value. And why is that? Because there is desire, and once there's craving what happens? The mind simultaneously withdraws out of the meditation.


Compare that to Ajahn Brahm's explanation for why comprehension is absent in Jhana. He says that comprehension is based on perspective giving comparison. I think what Ajahn Brahm says here is in line with his teacher's understanding of jhana as peace, where no measuring takes place.

No, Ajahn Chah says here about over-thinking, "desire" and "craving", not about absence of comprehension.

Sylvester wrote:How one paṭisaṃvedeti sukha as part of the "gradual cessation" depends on how much energy goes to just "experiencing and awareness" versus "experiencing and commenting".

Sampajañña is clear knowing of what is going on, rather than commenting.

Sylvester wrote:His famous Tucho Potthila story about closing off of the 5 senses to leave only the mind also comes to mind.

In this story he advises to restrain and compose the senses:

    Closing off the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and body, we leave only the mind. To "close off" the senses means to restrain and compose them, observing only the mind. Meditation is like catching the lizard. We use sati to note the breath. Sati is the quality of recollection, as in asking yourself, "What am I doing?" Sampajañña is the awareness that "now I am doing such and such."

Sylvester wrote:The absorption model proponents do not need to rely on the Vsm for the theory that jhanas are bereft of the 5 sense objects. The suttas themselves so say, if you just interpret "vivicc'eva kamehi" (quite secluded from the kāmā) plainly and literally.

Even Vsm contains (controversial) indications that sense perceptions are present in rupa jhanas: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4730

Kāmā conception was discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6785&p=109425

Kāmā is the passion for resolves (saṅkapparāga), not tactile sensations:

    There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing.

    But these are not sensuality (kāmā). They are called strings of sensuality (kāmaguṇā) in the discipline of the noble ones.

    The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world.
    The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
User avatar
Alexei
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Sylvester » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:14 pm

Alexei wrote:Hi Sylvester

Kāmā is the passion for resolves (saṅkapparāga), not tactile sensations:

    There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing.

    But these are not sensuality (kāmā). They are called strings of sensuality (kāmaguṇā) in the discipline of the noble ones.

    The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world.
    The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



Hi Alexei

I think we need to refer to the Pali for the passage above.

Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā— cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā, sotaviññeyyā saddā… ghānaviññeyyā gandhā… jivhāviññeyyā rasā… kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā. Api ca kho, bhikkhave, nete kāmā kāmaguṇā nāmete ariyassa vinaye vuccanti—

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke;
Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke;
Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandanti.


What sankapparaga is, according to AN 6.63, is kāma (singular, in the verse above inflected to the nominative singular). Sankapparaga is NOT kāmā (plural). As the CDP shows, "kāmā" in the suttas always refer to the 5 sense objects, while kāma refers to sense desires. Note the CPD traces the evolution of the usage of kāmā from the suttanta usage to the exegetical usage in the Abhidhamma. Another outcome of the need to accomodate the Abhidhammic innovation of lokuttara-lokiya jhanas peppering the Dhammasangani and Vibhanga.

I suppose we have to agree to disagree on how to interpret Ajahn Chah's admonition on thinking and speculation. To me, I think he could be simply referencing the dhammavitakka mentioned in AN 3.100. I'm not sure where the "over-thinking" came from, since he was clearly just referring to vitakka.

Perhaps you may like to comment whether your idea of jhanic "sampajanna" is that it just bare awareness, or whether you buy the idea that jhanic sampajanna = dhamma-vicaya is going on with the jhanic awareness. If the latter, how does dhamma-vicaya function without vitakka-vicara in 2nd Jhana and upwards? Essentially, can there be panna without thought, without mental words, without discursive conception? Can one "know" without differentiating? Can one differentiate when there is no vitakka as kusala sankappa to move the mind - see MN 78.13.

Sammāñāṇa (Right Knowledge) could be a candidate, but since MN 117 restricts this to the Arahant, it does not seem to have relevance to the sekkha's sampajanna or dhamma-vicaya which are supposed to make up the "nanasampayutta" as presented in this thread.

Likewise, Ajahn's simile of the termite mound also mentions this -

When Tuccho Pothila had come out of the bog, the novice gave him the teaching. He taught him to observe the sense objects, to know the mind and to know the sense objects, using the simile of a man catching a lizard hiding in a termite mound. If the mound had six holes in it, how would he catch it? He would have to seal off five of the holes and leave just one open. Then he would have to simply watch and wait, guarding that one hole. When the lizard ran out he could catch it.


You mentioned a controversy in Vsm -

Even Vsm contains (controversial) indications that sense perceptions are present in rupa jhanas: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4730


The link led me to this -

175. Now, as to the clause he feels bliss with his body: here, although in
one actually possessed of the third jhana there is no concern about feeling
bliss, nevertheless he would feel the bliss associated with his mental
body, and after emerging from the jhana he would also feel bliss since
his material body would have been affected by the exceedingly superior
matter originated by that bliss associated with the mental body.47 It is in
order to point to this meaning that the words 4he feels bliss with his
body' are said.


I believe Ven Buddhaghosa was correct to be circumspect. This issue has been canvassed in other threads, but in a nutshell, MN 43 ABSOLUTELY bars any of the 5 material indriyas from establishing phassa with any ayatana, save for that ayatana specific to that material indriya (MN 43.21). Jhanic sukha being niramisa sukha cannot be cognised by any of the 5 indriyas, as niramisa sukha is a purely mental phenomenon.

Put another way, if one has a pleasant bodily feeling or perceives the body, then according to MN 43.8, one has to have established phassa with tactitility as a kamaguna. But since the kamasukhas are declared as a "base pleasure" and the jhanas have nothing to do with such a base pleasure, such a cognition of the body cannot be jhanic pleasure.
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Alexei » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:20 pm

Sylvester wrote:Likewise, Ajahn's simile of the termite mound also mentions this -

When Tuccho Pothila had come out of the bog, the novice gave him the teaching. He taught him to observe the sense objects, to know the mind and to know the sense objects, using the simile of a man catching a lizard hiding in a termite mound. If the mound had six holes in it, how would he catch it? He would have to seal off five of the holes and leave just one open. Then he would have to simply watch and wait, guarding that one hole. When the lizard ran out he could catch it.


It's just simile. Just below he explains that it means "to restrain and compose" the senses.

Sylvester wrote:I suppose we have to agree to disagree on how to interpret Ajahn Chah's admonition on thinking and speculation. To me, I think he could be simply referencing the dhammavitakka mentioned in AN 3.100. I'm not sure where the "over-thinking" came from, since he was clearly just referring to vitakka.

No, he referring to "craving" and "desire". It's not "just vitakka".

    "And why is that? Because there is desire, and once there's craving what happens? The mind simultaneously withdraws out of the meditation."



It seems that we try to create our own Abhidhamma.

Vitakka and vicara are just verbal fabrications: "Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Their function in insight was discussed here: viewtopic.php?p=107920#p107920
User avatar
Alexei
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Alexei » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:33 pm

In regard to 5 senses in jhana I would prefer plain explanation:

    "Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five [sense] faculties?"
    "Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'

    "With what does one know a quality that can be known?"
    "One knows a quality that can be known with the eye of discernment."
    "And what is the purpose of discernment?"
    "The purpose of discernment is direct knowledge, its purpose is full comprehension, its purpose is abandoning."
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

    Ven. Ananda said, "It is amazing, friends, it is marvelous, how the Blessed One who knows & sees, the worthy one, rightly self-awakened, has attained & recognized the opportunity for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding, where the eye will be, and forms, and yet one will not be sensitive to that dimension; where the ear will be, and sounds... where the nose will be, and aromas... where the tongue will be, and flavors... where the body will be, and tactile sensations, and yet one will not be sensitive to that dimension."
    When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Ananda, "Is one percipient when not sensitive to that dimension, my friend, or unpercipient?"
    [Ananda:] "One is percipient when not sensitive to that dimension, my friend, not unpercipient."
    [Udayin:] "When not sensitive to that dimension, my friend, one is percipient of what?"
    [Ananda:] "There is the case where, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' one enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is one way of being percipient when not sensitive to that dimension.
    "Then again, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' one enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is another way of being percipient when not sensitive to that dimension.
    "Then again, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' one enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is another way of being percipient when not sensitive to that dimension.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
User avatar
Alexei
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby robertk » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:37 pm

Alexei wrote:I find some Ajahn Brahm's teachings helpful and esteem his life experience in general, but I can't understand why Ajahn Brahm calls himself student of Ajahn Chah since their approaches to meditation are quite different. For instance, Ajahn Chah didn't say that nimitta is required. Also Ajahn Chah's description of 5 senses activity in jhana is precisely conform to "sutta style jhanas":

    When the mind enters absorption it calms down and is stilled to a level where it is at its most subtle and skilful. Even if you experience sense impingement from the outside, such as sounds and physical sensations, it remains external and is unable to disturb the mind. You might hear a sound, but it won’t disturb your concentration. There is the hearing of the sound, but the experience is as if you don’t hear anything. There is awareness of the impingement but it’s as if you are not aware. This is because you let go. The mind lets go automatically. Concentration is so deep and firm that you let go of attachment to sense impingement quite naturally.


Ajahn Brahm:

    Another strange quality that distinguishes Jhana from all other experiences is that within Jhana all the five senses are totally shut down. One cannot see, one cannot hear, one cannot smell, taste nor feel touch.



Indeed strange.



It is in fact brahmavamso , and not chah , who is correct on this point according to the Tipitaka:


Katthavatthu PTS translation by Aung and Davids pages 331-332.

XV1118 Of Hearing in Jhana

The heretics said that sound could be known while in jhana, but the Theravada refuted them


Fr
om the commentary [by Buddhaghosa] Controverted point - That one who has attained jhana hears sound."The opinion is held by some - the Pubbaseilyans , for instance- that because the Exalted one called sound a thorn to first jhana, and if sound if not heard cannot be thorn in the flesh of one who had
attained that state, it was inferable that such a one was able to hear.


It takes over a page for the Theravada to show why this is wrong
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1258
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby morning mist » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:08 pm

Hi Alexei,
Alexei wrote: "His teacher Ajahn Chah said: With right samādhi, no matter what level of calm is reached, there is awareness. There is full mindfulness .... You can't do without this awareness, it must be present from beginning to end."
Ajahn Brahm does not suggest that one is not conscious at any point. Often what we are used to seeing is that when someone is not aware of 5 sense world the person is unconscious. What we are not familiar with is being conscious , mindful , and aware even when be don't hear things in the outside world. One is aware , mindful , and conscious , but not the outside world . That is something we don't often see or hear about.

When you sit down to meditate with closed eyes. You don't see anything in the outside world . If hundreds of cars drive by , you might be oblivious to it and with eyes closed you don't see it, and don't notice it. But still, if there is really loud thunder, you can still hear. Also if while you are sitting , cold wind or water contact your skin you can still feel it.

In jhana you don't even notice the sounds of thunder or feel the water on your skin . Still in meditative absorption, you are fully alert and mindful , such as seeing the nimitta and experiencing the happiness that is non-sensual.
And you are not unconscious .

Is it possible to be conscious and awake and not perceive the world of the 5 senses ? The Buddha said that it is.

"Now what do you think, Pukkusa? What is more difficult to do, more difficult to meet with — that a man, while conscious and awake , should not see a great number of carts, even five hundred carts, that passed him by one after another, nor hear the noise, or that one CONSCIOUS AND AWAKE , in the midst of a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing, SHOULD NEITHER SEE IT NOR HEAR THE NOISE ?"

"What, O Lord, are five hundred carts — nay, six, seven, eight, nine hundred, or a thousand or even hundreds of thousands of carts — compared with this?" - Mahaparinibbana Sutta


In the Mahaparinibbana Sutta we can see an example of this in the Buddha's meditation :

"And I asked him: 'Why, brother, has this great crowd gathered together?' And he answered me: 'Just now, Lord, there was a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing. And two farmers who were brothers were killed close by, together with four oxen. It is because of this that the great crowd has gathered. But where, Lord, were you?'
"'I was here, brother.' 'Yet, Lord, did you not see it?' 'I did not see it, brother.' 'BUT THE NOISE , Lord, you surely heard?' 'I DID NOT HEAR IT, brother.' Then that man asked me: 'Then, Lord, perhaps you slept?' 'No, brother, I was not sleeping.' 'Then, LORD, YOU WERE CONSCIOUS?' 'I WAS, brother.' Then that man said: 'Then, Lord, WHILE CONSCIOUS AND AWAKE, IN THE MIDST OF A HEAVY RAIN, WITH THUNDER ROLLING, LIGHTNING FLASHING, and THUNDERBOLTS CRASHING, YOU NEITHER SAW IT NOR HEARD THE NOISE?' And I answered him, saying: 'I DID NOT, brother.'

"And to that man, Pukkusa, came the thought: 'Marvellous it is, most wonderful indeed it is, the state of calmness wherein abide those who have gone forth from the world!' And there arose in him great faith in me, and he respectfully saluted me, and keeping his right side towards me, he went his way."

When this had been said, Pukkusa of the Malla clan said to the Blessed One: "The faith, Lord, that I had in Alara Kalama I now scatter to the mighty wind, I let it be carried away as by a flowing stream! Excellent, O Lord, most excellent, O Lord! It is as if, Lord, one were to set upright what had been overthrown, or to reveal what had been hidden, or to show the path to one who had gone astray, or to light a lamp in the darkness so that those having eyes might see — even so has the Blessed One set forth the Dhamma in many ways. And so, O Lord, I take my refuge in the Blessed One, the Dhamma, and the Community of Bhikkhus. May the Blessed One accept me as his disciple, one who has taken refuge until the end of life."

With metta,
with metta,
morning mist
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Alexei » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:03 pm

Hi morning mist

morning mist wrote:Ajahn Brahm does not suggest that one is not conscious at any point.


I didn't say anything about not conscious states. It was about clear comprehension.

With respect to Mahaparinibbana Sutta, there is not any explanation what attainment it was. It might be arūpa samāpatti or nirodha samāpatti.


In regard to Katthavatthu (later text, commentarial by nature), this point was discussed there: viewtopic.php?p=70017#p70017
User avatar
Alexei
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby morning mist » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:41 pm

Hi Alexi,

What the Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana sutta shows that it is possible to be conscious and awake and yet not of the external five sense world. And secondly, it is something the Buddha himself engages in and practice. And three, it is deeper than the ones where one can still perceive external senses. Also the Pamsudhovaka Sutta shows that a samadhi where we can still think about the dhamma during meditation is not full tranquility.

" there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements . –Pamsudhovaka Sutta

The two suttas shows that thinking or reflecting on the dhamma while in meditation is not full serenity, also the Buddha goes beyond the senses while fully conscious and awake in meditation. It is possible and it is not discouraged.


Dmytro wrote: "The "letting go" Brahmavamso talks about is slipping without any resistance into the passion for "beautiful representation" (subha-nimitta)."


There various types of sign mentioned in the sutta. When Ajahn Brahmavamso speaks about the sign which he describes as beautiful he is referring to the sign of the mind . Although the subha nimitta mentioned is translated as the sign of the beautiful , it is not the same one which he describes as beautiful. There are certain types of nimitta the Buddha suggests we focus on and certain ones he suggest that we don't . Below are a few examples :


1. Cittassa nimitta : sign of the mind ( this is the one Ajahn Brahm is refering to ,a " mental sign", ) - FOCUS

" only a beautiful MENTAL SIGN , a nimitta, remains. This pure MENTAL OBJECT "- A. Brahm

" The eyes are closed, and the sight consciousness has long been turned off. it is the mind consciousness freed for the first time from the world of the five senses. ....It is the mind ( citta ) manifesting- it is not a light, but for most it appears as a light. it is perceived as a light because this imperfect description is the best that perception can offer. "- Ajahn Brahm


2. Subha-nimittam: a beautiful object ( that we see in the external physical world) - NOT FOCUS

3. Asubha-nimittam: repulsive object. - FOCUS

4. Patigha Nimittam : an repugnance object ( that we see in the external physical world) . Patigha: repulsion, anger, repugnance . - NOT FOCUS

5. Samadhi nimitta: Samadhi sign ( this corresponds to the Samadhi Indriya of the Five Spiritual Faculties / Indriya instead of an object that we either see in the 5 sense world or within ) - FOCUS

6. Paggaha nimitta: the Effort sign ( this corresponds to the Effort Indriya of the Five Spiritual Faculties / Indriya instead of an object that we either see in the 5 sense world or within - FOCUS

7. Upekkha nimitta: the Equanimity sign- FOCUS




1.Cittassa nimitta

" there are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful bhikkhus dwelled focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference (related) to the world. While he dwelled focused on the body in & of itself, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements ( the five Hindrances) are not abandoned. He does not pick up that SIGN. He dwelled focused on feelings in & of themselves ... the mind in & of itself ... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference (related) to the world. While he dwelled focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements ( 5 hindrances) are not abandoned. He does not pick up that SIGN. As a result, he does not gain pleasant abiding in this very life, nor does he gain mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful bhikkhu does not pick up the SIGN of his own mind (CITTASSA NIMITTA) .

The wise bhikkhu picks up the SIGN (NIMITTAM) of his own mind (cittassa):
"In the same way, there are cases where a wise, experienced, skillful monk dwelled focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference (related) to the world. While he dwelled focused on the body in & of itself, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements ( the five Hindrances) are abandoned. He picks up that SIGN (NIMITTA) .

"He dwelled focused on feelings in & of themselves ... the mind in & of itself ... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference (related) to the world. While he dwelled focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements ( 5 hindrances) are abandoned. He picks up that SIGN (NIMITTA).

"As a result, he gain pleasant abiding in this very life, together with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful monk picks up on the SIGN (NIMITTA) of his own mind (cittassa)."- Suda Sutta



2. Subha-nimittam

“Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other thing that leads to the arising of unarisen sensual desire and increases the development of arisen sensual desire than the sign of beauty ( subha-nimittam, a beautiful object) . Improperly attending to (ayoniso manasi karoto) the sign of beauty arouses non-arisen sensual desires and increases the development of arisen sensual desires. This is the first.

3. Asubha-nimittam

"Bhikkhus, I do not know of of any other thing more conducive to the non arising of sensual desires that have not arise and the fading of arisen sensual desires than the sign of repulsiveness (asubha-nimittam) . Properly attending to (yoniso manasi karoto) the sign of repulsiveness, bhikkhus, leads to the non-arising of sensual desire that haven't arise and the fading of arisen sensual desire. --Nivaranappahana Vagga ( AN 1.11- 1.20 )


4. Patigha Nimittam

“Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other thing that leads to the arising of unarisen aversion and increases the development of arisen aversion than the sign of aversion ( patigha-nimittam, patigha: repulsion, anger, repugnance) . Improperly attending to (ayoniso manasi karoto) the sign of aversion arouses non-arisen aversion and increases the development of arisen aversion. ----Nivaranappahana Vagga ( AN 1.11- 1.20 )

5 -7 Samadhi nimitta, Paggaha nimitta and Upekkha nimitta

Bhikshus, when a monk is devoted in [engaged in] the higher mind, from time to time, three signs should be attended to. (1) The concentration sign (samādhi,nimitta) should from time to time be attended to. (2) The effort sign (paggaha,nimitta) should from time to time be attended to. (3) The equanimity sign (upekkhā,nimitta) should from time to time be attended.

Bhikshus, if a monk devoted to the higher mind were only to attend to the concentration sign, it is possible that it would bring about laziness . Bhikshus, if a monk engaged in the higher mind were only to attend to the effort sign, it is possible that it would bring about restlessness . Bhikshus, if a monk engaged in the higher mind were only to attend to the equanimity sign, it is possible that it would not bring the mind to the full concentration [right samadhi] for the sake of destroying the mental influxes.
Bhikshus, insofar as a monk, devoted to the higher mind, only from time to time attends to the concentration sign, only from time to time attends to the effort sign, only from time to time attends to the equanimity sign, to that extent, the mind, pliant, malleable and bright, uncorrupted, it would fully concentrate for the ending of the influxes.


With metta,
Last edited by morning mist on Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
with metta,
morning mist
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Alexei » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:39 pm

morning mist wrote:What the Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana sutta shows that it is possible to be conscious and awake but just not of the external five sense world. And secondly, it is something the Buddha himself engages in and practice. And three, it is deeper than the ones where one can still perceive external senses.

Yes, these suttas says that it's possible in arūpa attainments: viewtopic.php?p=120674#p120674

Further you quoted "my" words about subha-nimitta in your post, but I didn't write them.
User avatar
Alexei
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby morning mist » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:13 pm

Hi Alexei,

There is no support from the sutta saying that one only goes beyond the 5 senses in the others states and not Samma Samadhi. I haven't read anything from the sutta saying that this is the case.


I was answering Dmytro's post in conjunction with your post. The bottom post on nimita was a reply to Dmytro's . I just removed your name from the quote already.

with Metta,
Last edited by morning mist on Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
with metta,
morning mist
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Nyana » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:27 pm

Alexei wrote:In regard to 5 senses in jhana I would prefer plain explanation

Yes, it would be preferable to rely on the teachings. As for the Kathāvatthu controversy, it doesn't entail accepting Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna theory either. The sense faculties don't blackout every time one engages in thought. The six consciousnesses are nominal designations. As MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta tells us, "Consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises." And so there is a difference between simply attending to a mental object (nimitta) via mental consciousness, and the formless attainments wherein the mind is totally isolated from the five sense faculties. In commentarial terms, attending exclusively to a cognitive representation/mental object already occurs at the stage of access samādhi. Thus, the engagement is exclusively that of the apperception of the counterpart representation via mental consciousness. The difference between access samādhi and and the first jhāna is the degree of stability of the jhāna factors. The difference between the first jhāna and the formless attainments is indicated in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga when they discuss the formless attainments and mention Aḷāra Kālāma not seeing or hearing the five-hundred carts passing by when abiding in a formless attainment.

All the best,

Geoff
Nyana
 
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Postby Nyana » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:04 pm

Kenshou wrote:I have gotten the impression that the primary function of dhamma-vicaya is recognizing the skillfulness or unskillfulness of dhammas, so that they can be attended to properly, aka right effort.

Yes, the seven factors of awakening are a model of the conditioned process explaining how right mindfulness, right effort/right exertion, and right samādhi are to be developed and integrated, optimally culminating in the purity of mindfulness (fourth jhāna).

But dhamma-vicaya as a factor of awakening is also considered to be synonymous with discernment (paññā), right view (sammādiṭṭhi), clear seeing (vipassanā), and awakening (bodhi). This is stated in the Mahāniddesa and the Abhidhammapiṭaka. Therefore, dhamma-vicaya is said to be present at the time of attaining the noble paths and fruitions.

All the best,

Geoff
Nyana
 
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alex123, Bakmoon, waryoffolly and 10 guests