A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

[Assaji]

Hi Sylvester,

Also , there is no support for the claim that one goes beyond the 5 senses only in the arupa states.

This is described, for example, in Potthapada sutta (DN 9):

‘‘Puna caparaṃ, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati. Tassa yā purimā rūpasaññā, sā nirujjhati. Ākāsānañcāyatanasukhumasaccasaññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ākāsānañcāyatanasukhumasaccasaññīyeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti. Evampi sikkhā ekā saññā uppajjati, sikkhā ekā saññā nirujjhati. Ayampi sikkhā’’ti bhagavā avoca.

"Again, by passing entirely beyond bodily sensations, by the disappearance of all sense of resistance and by non-attraction to the perception of diversity, seeing that space is infinite, he reaches and remains in the Sphere of Infinite Space. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away through training."

May I ask why rūpasaññāna above has been translated as "bodily sensations"? Who did this translation?

That's the translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi.

In your other Dhamma forum, you said this -

That's a quote of our friend Geoff Shatz, not mine.

If the "kāmā" meant only the kāmaguṇā, then we are going to end up with very bizzare situations where the kāmaguṇā, instead of giving pleasure, give only pain.

The Critical Pali Dictionary has done a very comprehensive survey and its entries on kāmā and kāmaguṇā distinguish them. The CPD follows the canonical definition of kāmaguṇā and what that leads to is the kāmaguṇā being a sub-set of the kāmā. The "kāmā" are defined simply as rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā and phoṭṭhabbā, all WITHOUT the adjectives.

That, IMHO, is the plain and simple meaning of kāmā in the vivicc'eva kāmehi formula of 1st Jhana.

Thank you, I will explore this matter.

[Assaji]

Hi Sylvester,

I take it from the above that, unlike Geoff, you are of the position that in order to vipassati, one must have Dhamma-vicaya?

Or are you opting for his interpretation that one can vipassati without Dhamma-vicaya?

These are just names.

I do know that insight in jhana works very well, and this is explained in MN 111 and other suttas.

Dhamma-vicaya is explained very well in Dvedhavitakka sutta - in practice one starts with discriminating coarse thoughts, and then moves to discriminating kinds of selective recognition (sanna) in jhana, as described in Potthapada sutta. It doesn't require vitakka and vicara.

[Nyana]

May I take it that none of these 3 statements of yours were intended to be a reference to Ajahn Brahm's description of the Jhanas?

They were a reference to the dangers of extreme absorption samādhis, especially if one isn't already at a very advanced stage of awakening with most defilements and underlying tendencies already extinguished (i.e. non-returner or arahant). The four jhānas as sammāsamādhi are not extreme absorptions devoid of comprehension.

May I also take it that you are not saying that the Jhanas as described by Ajahn Brahm are asañña?

In the context of jhāna he uses saññā, sati, and sampajañña in such a restrictive sense that there is no meaningful differentiation between them. Both saññā and sampajañña are functional aspects of comprehension. These dhammas occur and function in all four jhānas.

That's a quote of our friend Geoff Shatz, not mine.

A quote transferred from another very old internet forum post.

All the best,

Geoff

[Assaji]

Hi Sylvester,

If you look at how other suttas present raganusaya and how it anuseti sukha vedana, it becomes clear that raganusaya is the consequence of raga. Eg from SN 36.6 -

Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind).

Tassāyeva kho pana dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno paṭighavā hoti. Tamenaṃ dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighavantaṃ, yo dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo, so anuseti. So dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno kāmasukhaṃ abhinandati. Taṃ kissa hetu? Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ, tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti.

Here I would disagree. Anusaya is an underlying tendency that gets activated:

"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And thanks to the development if wisdom, these tendencies can be removed, especially on the basis of samadhi.

[Assaji]

Hi Sylvester,

No trick or trap. I merely assumed you may have followed the Jhana Debate thread. Anyway, my critique of Geoff's fallacy in misreading MN 43 is here-

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ent#p74650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, I rely mostly on Potthapada Sutta description which I quoted above.

[Assaji]

Hi Morning Mist,

No body is saying that you should become attached to Jhana. This is just a misinterpretation. A person has to let go of attachment of one jhana to move to the next.

But for some reason, Brahmavamso writes that the attachment to jhana is impossible:

It is very odd, therefore, that some suggest that the practise of Jhana leads to attachment. How can, what is the practice of letting go, lead to attachment?

http://www.viet.net/anson/ebud/ebmed075.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are instruction for that and for developing insight which comes after.

But somehow Brahmavamso deems the work on developing wisdom unnecessary.

Comprehending and awareness / being conscious are two different things. Thoughts are allowed to settle, so mental analyzing or dhamma vitakka should be left behind.

" This ATTENTIVE stillness that is able to sustain awareness on one thing is called samadhi."

" Samadhi is the attentive stillness that is able to sustain attention on one thing"

The whole puprose of samma-samadhi is the development of wisdom:

"And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?"

"Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hence samadhi without comprehension is worthless.

The Western translation of "ekaggatta" as "attention on one thing", or "one-pointedness", makes samadhi a rather nonsensical effort to narrow the mind.

Ekaggatta means something quite different:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,

[Assaji]

Hi Morning Mist,

By the way nathan, you mentioned that you experienced four jhanas of Samma Samadhi and various formless states, were you able to recall many fold past lives and have knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings as the Buddha and his disciples did after they attained these states, or are the states that you called Samma samadhi and formless states different than the one they practice ?

Is this an irony?

It is well explained in the Pali texts that jhanas and samapattis by themselves don't lead to supernormal abilities, and out of the "three knowledges" of the Buddha, only one knowledge, the cessation of leaks (asava), is shared by his disciples, - they don't necessarily have knowledge of former lives and of the passing away and reappearance of beings.

[Sylvester]

Hi Sylvester,

No trick or trap. I merely assumed you may have followed the Jhana Debate thread. Anyway, my critique of Geoff's fallacy in misreading MN 43 is here-

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ent#p74650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, I rely mostly on Potthapada Sutta description which I quoted above.

Hi Dmytro

Well, I guess Ven Bodhi's most current translation idiom for the phrase in question is "perception of form", rather than "bodily sensations".

[morning mist]

Hi Dmytro,

"Again, by passing entirely beyond bodily sensations, by the disappearance of all sense of resistance and by non-attraction to the perception of diversity, seeing that space is infinite, he reaches and remains in the Sphere of Infinite Space. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away through training."

May I ask why rūpasaññāna above has been translated as "bodily sensations"?

[/quote]

According to the structure of the realms and the jhanas we have:
1.
kama-loka : sense realm
kama sanna : sense perception, perception of senses


2.
rupa-loka: fine material world or Form realm
RUPA SANNA : Accordingly, this is Fine Material Perception or Form Perception or Perception of form
rupa jhana


3.
arupa loka: immaterial world
arupa jhana





In the Rupa jhana ( form jhana) perception of senses cease (kamasanna, sense perception, perception of sense) .

With Metta,

[morning mist]

Is this an irony?
It is well explained in the Pali texts that jhanas and samapattis by themselves don't lead to supernormal abilities,

According to the Maha-Saccaka Sutta, after the fourth jhana the Buddha directed his mind towards the three knowledges:

"I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. " -(Maha-Saccaka Sutta)

The other two knowledges followed after, but it is too long to post the whole thing, please refer to Maha-Saccaka Sutta.

and out of the "three knowledges" of the Buddha, only one knowledge, the cessation of leaks (asava), is shared by his disciples, - they don't necessarily have knowledge of former lives and of the passing away and reappearance of beings.

Numerous people share this, for example Rahula, Kassapa, etc...

" Bhikkhus, when desired, I enjoy manifold supranormal powers, such as being one, becoming many, being many becoming one , appearing and vanishing. I go unimpeded through walls, through ramparts and mountains as if through space. I dive in and come out of earth as though in water. I walk on water as though on earth. Sitting crosslegged I fly through the air like a winged bird . With my hand I touch & stroke even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. I exercise influence with my body even as far as the Brahma worlds. Kassapa too when desired enjoys various spiritual powers.

" Bhikkhus, when desired, with the purified divine ear-element beyond human. I hear both kinds of sounds, heavenly and human, whether near or far. Kassapa too when desired, with the purified divine ear element beyond human, hears sounds heavenly and human far and near.


"Bhikkhus, when desired, I penetrate and understand the minds of other beings. I know the mind with greed, the mind without greed, the angry mind and the not angry mind. I know the deluded mind and the not deluded mind, the composed mind and the distracted mind. I know the exalted mind and the un exalted mind, the surpassable mind and an unsurpassable mind . I know the concentrated mind and the un-concentrated mind, the liberated mind and the unliberated mind. Kassapa too when desired penetrates and understands the minds of other beings. …

"Bhikkhus, when desired, I recollect the manifold previous births such as one birth, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty births. One hundred births, one thousand births, one hundred thousand births, innumerable aeons of cosmic-contraction, innumerable aeons of cosmic-expansion, innumerable aeons of cosmic-contraction and cosmic-expansion. There I was with this name, in this clan, with this disposition, supported thus, experiencing these pleasant and unpleasant feelings, enjoying such a lifespan. Disappearing from there I was born there with this name, in this clan, with this disposition, supported thus, experiencing these pleasant and unpleasant feelings, enjoying such a lifespan. Disappearing from there I was born here. Thus I recollect the manifold previous births with all details. Kassapa too when desired, recollects the manifold previous births such as one birth... Thus he recollects the manifold previous births with all details.


"Bhikkhus, when desired, with the purified divine eye beyond human I see beings disappearing and appearing beautiful and ugly, in heaven and hell, born according their kamma.'These good beings owing to misconduct in body, words and mind, reviling noble ones, owing to bearing wrong view and the actions based on wrong views, after death are born in misery, in states of deprivation, in decrease, in hell. These good beings owing to right conduct in body, words and mind, not reviling noble ones, owing to bearing right view and the actions based on right views, after death are born in increase, in fortunate states, in heaven. Thus I see beings disappearing and appearing beautiful and ugly, in heaven and hell, born according their kamma. Kassapa too when he desired, with the purified divine eye beyond human sees beings disappearing and appearing beautiful and ugly, in heaven and hell, born according their kamma...

" ....Kassapa too, by the ending of the asava, he enters and abides in the anasava liberation of mind, liberation of wisdom, realizing it for himself with direct knowledge (abhinna: special knowledge, supernormal power) in this very life."

- SN 16.9 Jhanabhinna Sutta

With metta,

[Sylvester]

Hi Sylvester,

If you look at how other suttas present raganusaya and how it anuseti sukha vedana, it becomes clear that raganusaya is the consequence of raga. Eg from SN 36.6 -

Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind).

Tassāyeva kho pana dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno paṭighavā hoti. Tamenaṃ dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighavantaṃ, yo dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo, so anuseti. So dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno kāmasukhaṃ abhinandati. Taṃ kissa hetu? Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ, tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti.

Here I would disagree. Anusaya is an underlying tendency that gets activated:

"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And thanks to the development if wisdom, these tendencies can be removed, especially on the basis of samadhi.

Hello Dmytro

I guess we do have to agree to disagree.

It's strange how when we both look at the same sutta, we arrive at different conclusions. From an earlier passage in the same sutta -

Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed.

Looking at both statements, they do appear to be conditional statements, not categorical ones. The verbs are qualified by "if". Ven Bodhi's translation of the same passage also couches the statements as conditional statements. Which does suggest that even putthujanas can, with the satipatthanas, prevent raga from overtaking the sukha vedana, and thereby activating/lying with the raganusaya.

This does fit in rather nicely with MN 44 that not all raganusaya have to be pahatabbo/abandoned with respect to sukha. They just arise if raga is present.

[Sylvester]

May I take it that none of these 3 statements of yours were intended to be a reference to Ajahn Brahm's description of the Jhanas?

They were a reference to the dangers of extreme absorption samādhis, especially if one isn't already at a very advanced stage of awakening with most defilements and underlying tendencies already extinguished (i.e. non-returner or arahant). The four jhānas as sammāsamādhi are not extreme absorptions devoid of comprehension.

May I also take it that you are not saying that the Jhanas as described by Ajahn Brahm are asañña?

In the context of jhāna he uses saññā, sati, and sampajañña in such a restrictive sense that there is no meaningful differentiation between them. Both saññā and sampajañña are functional aspects of comprehension. These dhammas occur and function in all four jhānas.

Sigh, how difficult can it be to give a categorical Yes or No to either question?

Must I invoke Vajirapani yet again?

While you mull over my request, pls indulge my curiosity which has been piqued by your statement -

And both vipassati and the dhamma-investigation awakening factor are multifaceted. They take on different levels of meaning at different stages of insight.

What does this mean? The existence of an avitakka avicara dhammavicayasambojjhanga? Since my preference is for the suttas in the 4 Nikayas, let's start there first for citations, if you don't mind. I do not disagree with your statement above that "Both saññā and sampajañña are functional aspects of comprehension", but I'm intrigued by the quality of dhammavicaya in the sutta jhanas as you see it, particularly its relation to the vacisankharas.

While we are at it, since you seem to feel that vipassati and dhammavicayasambojjhanga take on different levels of meaning at different stages of insight, what is there to say that the quality of sati, sampajanna and sanna do not also evolve with progression into and through the Jhanas? Certainly, DN 9 is very clear that the contents of the "perceptions" in each Jhana changes. Is the same level of sati, sampajanna and sanna needed with each different "object" of the perception? After all, the suttas' standard formula for the transition from 3rd Jhana to 4th Jhana is quite explicit in the qualitative changes in the sati and upekkha.

[morning mist]

Hi Dmytro,

" This ATTENTIVE stillness that is able to sustain awareness on one thing is called samadhi."

" Samadhi is the attentive stillness that is able to sustain attention on one thing"- Ajahn Brahm

The whole puprose of samma-samadhi is the development of wisdom:
Hence samadhi without comprehension is worthless.......

The way I understand what he meant by "attentive stillness" is that the mind is aware yet it is not moving from one object to another, from one thought to another.

The suttas stated that :

“When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements . –Pamsudhovaka Sutta


Some suggest that we engage Sanna ( perception) during Samma samadhi for insight, but according to these suttas that doesn't seem to be the case:

 " Any desire-passion with regard to perception of  ideas ( dhamma sanna)  is a defilement of the mind ( cittasseso upakkileso) . When, with regard to these six bases, the defilements of awareness are abandoned, then the mind is inclined to renunciation. The mind fostered by renunciation feels malleable for the direct knowing  ( abbhina: special knowledge, supranormal knowledge) of those qualities worth realizing ( sacchikaraniyesu: fit to be realized) ."


We should be calming it ( sanna ) down instead of engaging it to stir it up . According to the Anapanasati sutta:

5. ‘I shall breathe in experiencing piti (rapture) ’; trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing piti (rapture) ’;

6. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in experiencing sukha’; he trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing sukha’;

7. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation’ ( perception and feeling) ; He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation’ ( perception and feeling) ;

8. He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe in calming the mental formation’( perception and feeling) ; He trains thus, ‘I shall breathe out calming the mental formation ( perception and feeling)’ - Anapanasati sutta

Note: mental formations are perception and feeling according to MN 44

But somehow Brahmavamso deems the work on developing wisdom unnecessary.

Insight can be developed after instead of during Samma Samadhi. There is actually a whole section towards the end of his book devoted to Insight. But this is not in the little booklet, so some believe that he only teaches Samatha with no vipassana. But he emphasizes both Samatha and Vipassana which is Bhavana. There is no need for samatha and vipassana to compete, both has a place and time in this path.

“When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements .

But there comes a time when his mind becomes inwardly steadied , composed , unified (ekodi), and concentrated ( samadhiyati) . That samadhi is then calm and refined; it has attained to full tranquillity and achieved mental unification (ekodibhava); it is not maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements. Then to whatever dhamma realizable by supernormal knowledge he directs his mind, he achieves the capacity of realizing that state by supernormal knowledge, whenever the necessary conditions obtain .” –Pamsudhovaka Sutta


Vipassana Preceded by Samatha
“Here, friends, a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by tranquillity (Samatha-pubbaṅgamaṃ vipassanam). As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path arises in him. He now frequents that path, cultivates, and pursues it.  While he is doing so his fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies destroyed."- Yuganaddha Sutta ( AN 4.170) Four Ways to Arahantship

With Metta,

[Nyana]

The suttas stated that :

“When he has abandoned these, there still remain thoughts about the dhamma (dhamma vitakka). That samadhi is not yet peaceful and sublime; it has not attained to full tranquillity , nor has it achieved mental unification (ekodibhava) ; it is maintained by strenuous suppression of the defilements . –Pamsudhovaka Sutta

It is sammāsamādhi which enables the mind to attend to phenomena without strenuous suppression of defilements. Sense restraint (indriya saṃvara) plays an important role in this regard. And as the following sutta informs us, when the mind is concentrated, phenomena become apparent. Due to phenomena becoming apparent, one is designated as 'one who abides diligently.' SN 35.97 Pamādavihārī Sutta:

• And how, monks, does one abide diligently? If one abides with restraint over the eye faculty, the mind is not scattered among forms cognizable by the eye. If the mind is not scattered, gladness is born. When one is gladdened, joy is born. When the mind is uplifted by joy, the body becomes tranquil. With a tranquil body, one abides with pleasure. A pleasurable mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become apparent. Due to phenomena becoming apparent, one is designated as ‘one who abides diligently.’
  
  If one abides with restraint over the ear faculty, the mind is not scattered among sounds cognizable by the ear.... If one abides with restraint over the nose faculty, the mind is not scattered among odors cognizable by the nose.... If one abides with restraint over the tongue faculty, the mind is not scattered among flavors cognizable by the tongue.... If one abides with restraint over the body faculty, the mind is not scattered among tactual objects cognizable by the body....
  
  If one abides with restraint over the mind faculty, the mind is not scattered among mental phenomena cognizable by the mind. If the mind is not scattered, gladness is born. When one is gladdened, joy is born. When the mind is uplifted by joy, the body becomes tranquil. With a tranquil body, one abides with pleasure. A pleasurable mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become apparent. Due to phenomena becoming apparent, one is designated as ‘one who abides diligently.’

According to the Maha-Saccaka Sutta, after the fourth jhana the Buddha directed his mind towards the three knowledges:

SN 8.7 Pavāraṇā Sutta states that of 500 arahants present, 60 had triple knowledge (tevijjā), 60 had the six higher gnoses (chaḷabhiññā), 60 were liberated both ways (ubhatobhāgavimuttā, meaning jhānas & formless attainments), and all of the rest were liberated through discernment (paññāvimuttā). Thus, even amongst a large assembly of arahants the majority hadn't developed the formless attainments or realized the knowledge of past lives and passing away and reappearance of beings associated with triple knowledge and the six higher gnoses.

According to the structure of the realms and the jhanas

There is no direct one-to-one correspondence between the three worlds (lokas) and the three spheres (avacaras) as classification schemes of related phenomena. A human being who abides in jhāna is still in the kāmaloka, but his or her mind and mental factors are not engaged with any phenomena which would give rise to sensual pleasure (kāma). This can lead to rebirth in the rūpaloka. Thus, the mind and mental factors (cittacetasikā) of rūpāvacarajjhāna are similar to the mind and mental factors of deities abiding in the rūpaloka, but abiding in rūpāvacarajjhāna doesn't mean that one has entered the rūpaloka.

All the best,

Geoff

[morning mist]

Hi Nana,

even amongst a large assembly of arahants the majority hadn't developed the formless attainments or realized the knowledge of past lives and passing away and reappearance of beings associated with triple knowledge and the six higher gnoses.

Of course, even one jhana is sufficient for the development of Arahantship. Not all will need all four jhanas or the formless states. But you can see that the three knowledges or the six abhinnas are not off limit to disciples.

but abiding in rūpāvacarajjhāna doesn't mean that one has entered the rūpaloka.

I am not saying that you are in rupa loka when in jhana, I am just showing the connection in how the word rupa is used in the context of rupasanna. It doesn't refer to " bodily sensation", but "Perception of Materiality" instead. That's the recent translation from Bhikkhu Bodhi's book. It makes sense because it is referring to the perception of things in rupa jhana. There is a connection between the rupa jhana and rupa loka. It leads to rebirth there if one doesn't develop insight.

The Sangiti Sutta points out that :" By the attainments of the first jhana, kamasanna ( ( perception of five sense objects & sense desires, perception of the things of the kama loka, perception of sensuality ) cease (niruddhā)"

káma may denote:
1.objective sensuality, the five sense-objects.
2. subjective sensuality, 'sense-desire';

1. Objective sensuality is, in the canonical texts, mostly called káma-guna, 'cords (or strands) of sensuality'.
"There are 5 cords of sensuality: the visible objects, cognizable by eye-consciousness, that are desirable, cherished, pleasant, lovely, sensuous and alluring; the sounds ... smells ... tastes ... bodily impressions cognizable by body-consciousness, that are desirable .... " (D. 33; M. 13, 26, 59, 66).

2. Subjective sensuality, or sense-desire, is directed to all five sense-objects

- Ven. Nyanatiloka

With metta,