Australian Brahmic Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Sylvester
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Postby Sylvester » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:11 am

Thanks piotr.

I would agree with the Vsm's logic, if it applied the suttanta understanding of Jhana.

Unfortunately, I distinctly remember (either in the Vsm or a translation of a Commentary) that the Abhidhammic dichotomy of lokuttara-lokiya was applied to Nirodha Samapatti as well. The text was unequivocal in declaring that lokiya Nirodha Samapatti leads to rebirth as an asaññisatta.

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piotr
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Postby piotr » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:18 am

Hi,

Sylvester wrote:Unfortunately, I distinctly remember (either in the Vsm or a translation of a Commentary) that the Abhidhammic dichotomy of lokuttara-lokiya was applied to Nirodha Samapatti as well.


Strange because it seems to me, if I get it right, it would be in conflict with assumption that nirodha-samāpatti can be attained only by anāgāmins and arahants.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

rowyourboat
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:32 pm

piotr wrote:Hi,

Sylvester wrote:Unfortunately, I distinctly remember (either in the Vsm or a translation of a Commentary) that the Abhidhammic dichotomy of lokuttara-lokiya was applied to Nirodha Samapatti as well.


Strange because it seems to me, if I get it right, it would be in conflict with assumption that nirodha-samāpatti can be attained only by anāgāmins and arahants.


Indeed. Nirodhasamapatti, just because of its emptiness, should be not be confused with asanna states (which are also empty). The whole point -that only anagamins and arahanths who have access to the 8th jhana can attain it is that their fetters have been weakened through a vipassana process- hence thereby making nirodhasamapatti- a samatha process- go where it wasn't able to go before.

The Buddha's truck with his early teachers Alarakalama and Uddakaramaputta was that, even after they taught him the 8th jhana of neither-perception nor non-perception, was that that was not full cessation.

Now I can understand Ajhan Brahm's stance that when in any jhana, there is no craving (Because it is beyond the kamavacara sphere)- nor was there any craving in the 8th jhana- but the Buddha was not satisfied as it was not full cessation:

"In this way did Uddaka Ramaputta, my companion in the holy life, place me in the position of teacher and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

In some way you could even say that nirodhasamapatti is a fusion between samatha and vipassana, but that would be a step too far. Maybe you could call it a fusion of the highest results of both samatha and vipassana. The inadequacy of that would be that there is still an arahanth state to be gained for the anagamin in nirodhasamapatti- maybe the best definition is that it is simply a state of concentration (samadhi) reached where full cessation (a kind of nibbana?) is experienced.

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Nyana
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Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism

Postby Nyana » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:37 pm

rowyourboat wrote:maybe the best definition is that it is simply a state of concentration (samadhi) reached where full cessation (a kind of nibbana?) is experienced.

I think this is accurate.

All the best,

Geoff


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