Most people reborn as humans?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
perkele
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Re: Most people reborn as humans?

Postby perkele » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:53 pm

fragrant herbs wrote:Bhikkhu Pesala,

Then how is it, if a human birth is so rare, that it was given to people who are not going to even come close to studying the dhamma, who are extremely harmful to others?


Do you think there is someone deciding over people's rebirth and should make better decisions?

fragrant herbs wrote:And what good does it do to give someone a lower birth, such as that of an animal or an insect, when they cannot learn anything from it?

Who said it does any good for a being to have a low rebirth? And what do you mean with "giving". There is no one giving rebirth.

I cannot believe that some of these harmful people had ever merited enough good karma to be born in a human birth?

You seem to believe that there is something intrinsically "good" or "bad" in people, and only "good" people can do good kamma, whereas "bad" people always do bad kamma. And because it needs some good kamma to have a human rebirth all human beings should already be good and incapable of doing harm?
That human birth is rare does not mean it is already perfect. Otherwise there would be no sense for human beings in enduring hardships to do good and striving for buddhahood. Or do you think you are already perfect?
Human birth is not all the same in any case. Human beings are born in different circumstances with different tendencies and afflictions. Some are stupid, some are intelligent, some are more compassionate, some are less compassionate, some are physically strong, some are weak, some are healthy, some are ill. It cannot all be seen in such a flat manner as only "good" or "bad".
Of course, some people do horrible things, and for that they will inevitably experience the results. So no need for you to be spiteful and mischievous if you understand this and strive to free yourself from such afflictions.

And what is so bad about a person being born into an animal or an insect; neither dislike their life and may even have less stress and worry that the most of us.

How do you know? Do you remember having been an animal in a previous life? This is just a prejudice of yours, because you don't know such animal existence.

fragrant herbs
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Re: Most people reborn as humans?

Postby fragrant herbs » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:24 pm

Just performing the mundane meritorious deeds of charity, morality, learning Dhamma, etc., is not enough. We must become one who strives to attain the Path (āraddhavipassaka), which means attaining at least the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away (udayabbhaya ñāṇa).


No, I am replying to this quote of Bhikkhu Pesala, that implies that one must at least attain the Knowledge of Arising and Passing away for a human birth to occur. That doing good deeds is not enough.

How did people who are on this earth now, get this rare human birth? It is hard to believe that all who came here came because they had such good karma and understood the dharma, when there is so much cruelty in this world.

I never suggested that people are Inherently born bad or good, but there are some that are born bad, the sociopath.

If your karma is bad enough, there is the claim that you would be reborn into an animal or an insect. I am saying what is the reason? Do you not you have to learn something from your bad karma? If you are born in the hell realm, do you learn something from that experience? If you don't learn from the experience, what good is it? And how can being born into an animal life be negative? They have a better life than many here, less stress, worry, etc.
Last edited by fragrant herbs on Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

perkele
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Re: Most people reborn as humans?

Postby perkele » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:31 pm

fragrant herbs wrote:I never suggested that people are Inherently born bad or good, but there are some that are born bad, the sociopath.


You contradict yourself in this sentence.

And about animals being better off than humans and having less stress, do you really believe this? :roll: I think this is very superficial.
A moth flying to the light bulb, hitting at it again and again, getting burnt to death, fish in the sea eating each other, a rabbit fearfully hiding from a fox who is after him, a worm, blind with very dull perception, would you like to be one? A bird flying in the sky, might seem inspiring, but without human intelligence your appreciation of it will not be the same.

You should use your human intelligence to consider these things more wisely, not with such superficial view.

:buddha2:

May the force be with you.

fragrant herbs
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Re: Most people reborn as humans?

Postby fragrant herbs » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:59 pm

It wasn't a contradiction when i said that some people are born sociopaths, without a conscious.There is a lot of evidence showing that sociopaths have brain physiology that differs from most other people. Most are born without the ability to empathize or sympathize with others, which is why some take delight in torturing animals or people. But it is hard to say about most other people. Generally, I think people can go to good to bad and visa versa.

Animals do suffer, that is correct, but I don't think that they suffer as much as we do unless they are put in a lab where they mentally break down under pressure. To be chased and eaten is very quick for most part. An insect doesn't even know what is happening to it unless some cruel human comes around and starts pulling off its legs, etc. Whereas, humans live under constant suffering from so many conditions. For example, the scientists put animals under stress and compare their reactions to humans; they mentally break down. But in the wild they have far less problems than mankind. They basically don't end up in mental hospitals suffering from schizophrenia or PTSD or some other mental disorder. They don't worry over money or the environment, etc. They are just themselves, surviving. They may suffer starvation, etc. but the human life is far worse I would say. Yes, animals have fears when they are chased or know that they are going to be killed, and they have emotions. They live in the moment, which is what Buddhism tries to train us to do. :smile: It appears to me that humans, which are still of the animal kingdom, are the cruelest of all animals. They kill each other for no apparent reason other than they are angry or feel that this is what God wants them to do, etc.

It is said that the more intelligence you have the more you suffer.

I don't understand that have to have perfected the dharma in some way, meet all the requirements before one can be reborn as a human, so is hard for me to understand. If all my efforts bring me to this planet, then I am making the wrong efforts, because it is pretty hellish here. I always thought that when you had perfected the dharma you had a better rebirth.

I had just hoped to have my questions answered. That is all, instead I feel caught up in mundane questioning here that have nothing to do with this thread or with answering my questions.
Last edited by fragrant herbs on Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Most people reborn as humans?

Postby fragrant herbs » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:13 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:
mañjughosamaṇi wrote:I don't think kamma-vipāka has anything to do with giving something. It is a natural law that kusala actions lead to higher birth, while akusala ones lead to lower birth.


I think the problem is that in some cases, the relationship between kamma a) and vipaka b) seems counterintuitive or not quite right.

For example, holding wrong view is said to result in animal rebirth or hell. Some of the greatest minds in human history are guilty of that, in the sense that they were not Buddhists. It doesn't make sense that the mental capacity of an Einstein or Hawking would be reduced to, say, that of a bug simply by virtue of the fact that they didn't subscribe to the doctrine of kamma and rebirth. The vipaka doesn't seem to match the kamma. Of course we can say it is imponderable and all that, but such an answer is somehow unsatisfying. The teaching frankly sounds like the usual sort of scare tactic religions deploy against heretics or nonbelievers.

By contrast, it makes sense that, say, if you spent your whole life wallowing in sensual pleasures, you might regress to an animal state, or if you were consumed with hate you could end up in hell.



Good Points, Lazy-Eye

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Re: Most people reborn as humans?

Postby Digity » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:21 am

fragrant herbs wrote:It wasn't a contradiction when i said that some people are born sociopaths, without a conscious.There is a lot of evidence showing that sociopaths have brain physiology that differs from most other people. Most are born without the ability to empathize or sympathize with others, which is why some take delight in torturing animals or people. But it is hard to say about most other people. Generally, I think people can go to good to bad and visa versa.

Animals do suffer, that is correct, but I don't think that they suffer as much as we do unless they are put in a lab where they mentally break down under pressure. To be chased and eaten is very quick for most part. An insect doesn't even know what is happening to it unless some cruel human comes around and starts pulling off its legs, etc. Whereas, humans live under constant suffering from so many conditions. For example, the scientists put animals under stress and compare their reactions to humans; they mentally break down. But in the wild they have far less problems than mankind. They basically don't end up in mental hospitals suffering from schizophrenia or PTSD or some other mental disorder. They don't worry over money or the environment, etc. They are just themselves, surviving. They may suffer starvation, etc. but the human life is far worse I would say. Yes, animals have fears when they are chased or know that they are going to be killed, and they have emotions. They live in the moment, which is what Buddhism tries to train us to do. :smile: It appears to me that humans, which are still of the animal kingdom, are the cruelest of all animals. They kill each other for no apparent reason other than they are angry or feel that this is what God wants them to do, etc.

It is said that the more intelligence you have the more you suffer.

I don't understand that have to have perfected the dharma in some way, meet all the requirements before one can be reborn as a human, so is hard for me to understand. If all my efforts bring me to this planet, then I am making the wrong efforts, because it is pretty hellish here. I always thought that when you had perfected the dharma you had a better rebirth.

I had just hoped to have my questions answered. That is all, instead I feel caught up in mundane questioning here that have nothing to do with this thread or with answering my questions.


A human birth is desirable becasue one can do spiritual practice as a human. If you're an animal you don't have the faculties to understand the dharma. That alone places a human birth is a special category. Yes, the human life is not easy. It can be difficult and stressful, but that's all part of the spiritual path. That uneaseness, stressful aspect of life is what should spur you forward in your practice of the dharma.

To truly appreciate your birth as a human you must remind yourself of what the ultimate goal is. What is that? It's Unbinding. It's full release. You won't move closer in that goal as an animal, but you can make great progress as a human. That's the beauty of being a human being. Don't take this for granted.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense to you!
Samsara sucks. #samvega

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Re: Most people reborn as humans?

Postby ground » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:42 am

336. Bhikkhus, in the peninsular of India there are a few pleasant orchards, forests, outstanding sites, stretches of water but many irregular blocks of land, irregular rivers flowing disorderly, forming uneven shapes. In the same manner a few humans who leave the human corpse are born among humans many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts.

337. In the same manner a few gods that leave divinity are reborn among gods many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts.

338. In the same manner a few gods that leave divinity are reborn as humans, many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts.

339. Bhikkhus, in the same manner a few released from hell are reborn human, many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts.

340. Bhikkhus, a few released from hell are reborn with the gods, many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts. In the same manner a few who leave behind the animal world are reborn as humans, many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts. In the same manner a few who leave behind the animal world are reborn as gods, many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts. In the same manner a few ghosts are reborn among humans, many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts. In the same manner a few ghosts are reborn among gods, many more are reborn in hell, in the animal world and as ghosts.
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ali-e.html


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