DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 05, 2011 9:04 am

retrofuturist wrote:I wasn't critiquing anything here necessarily... only explaining that all sankhara are not stilled through mindfulness alone, because the very tools of mindfulness are sankhata.
Seeing their conditioned, interdependent nature as they arise and fall dependent upon causes and conditions is the basis for meaningfully stilling them via insight.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 05, 2011 9:06 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Seeing their conditioned, interdependent nature as they arise and fall dependent upon causes and conditions is the basis for meaningfully stilling them via insight.

On a sankhara by sankhara basis this is precisely so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 05, 2011 9:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Seeing their conditioned, interdependent nature as they arise and fall dependent upon causes and conditions is the basis for meaningfully stilling them via insight.

On a sankhara by sankhara basis this is precisely so.
What do you mean by that?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 05, 2011 9:11 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:What do you mean by that?

I mean it is true of each individual dhamma that you track from beginning to end.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 05, 2011 9:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:What do you mean by that?

I mean it is true of each individual dhamma that you track from beginning to end.
Still not clear what your meaning is here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 05, 2011 9:32 am

Greetings Tilt,

Alright, explained a different way... there are many sankhata dhamma present at one time, yet you can only place attention on any one of those dhammas at a time.

For that one dhamma, if you're mindful, you can see it rise (and the cause for its arising) and its cessation... that particular sankhata dhamma can be said to have ceased, but that is still against a background of other formed sensory and mental activity (sankhara).

The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present.

MN 44 wrote:"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 05, 2011 9:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Alright, explained a different way... there are many sankhata dhamma present at one time, yet you can only place attention on any one of those dhammas at a time.

For that one dhamma, if you're mindful, you can see it rise (and the cause for its arising) and its cessation... that particular sankhata dhamma can be said to have ceased, but that is still against a background of other formed sensory and mental activity (sankhara).

The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present.

MN 44 wrote:"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

Metta,
Retro. :)
Okay. So the point is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 05, 2011 9:41 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:So the point is?

Dependent origination is dependent upon avijja and sankhara, whether or not these two are explicitly denoted in any given dependent origination sequence.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 05, 2011 9:48 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:So the point is?

Dependent origination is dependent upon avijja and sankhara, whether or not these two are explicitly denoted in any given dependent origination sequence.

Metta,
Retro. :)

At last, back to the original topic...

Unless, of course, avijja and sankhara are a later addition to the sequence, as in the opinion of some of the posts above... :coffee:

But, like Tilt, I don't see the connection with the last half-dozen posts...

:anjali:
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 05, 2011 9:52 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:But, like Tilt, I don't see the connection with the last half-dozen posts...

There isn't necessarily one - I was just responding to Tilt's line of questioning.... that his line of question doesn't lead to my point, isn't altogether surprising.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 05, 2011 12:11 pm

Greetings Tilt,

retrofuturist wrote:I believe it is said elsewhere that the path of stream-entry does not require jhana, but the fruition of stream-entry does. I could look it up, if you insist.

tiltbillings wrote:I imsist.

It seems I remembered a bit over-simplistically...

http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=51

Nanavira Thera wrote:As regards samādhi, the situation is this. As soon as a person reaches the first path (not the fruition, which may come much later—see CITTA) he gets the ariyapuggala's right view (sammāditthi), which is his paññā. And it is a characteristic of paññā that when one has it (as an ariyapuggala) one also has samādhi, viriya, saddhā, and sati.[a]

Now, one who has this paññā can, simply by developing his paññā, at the same time develop his samādhi; and when these have reached sufficient strength (more is required for each successive stage) the attainment of fruition takes place. Although the development of paññā is, of necessity, partly discursive (or intellectual), in the actual attainment of fruition (sotāpatti, etc.) the mind becomes steady (since samādhi has been automatically developed together with paññā, and the two now combine as equal partners—see M. 149: iii,289[1])—and there is direct intuition instead of discursive thinking. So in all attainment of fruition there is samādhi. But it is also possible for the ariyapuggala to develop his samādhi separately by means of ānāpānasati etc., and this is, in fact, the pleasantest way of advancing (for some people, however, it is difficult, and they have to grind away at vipassanā practice—i.e. development of paññā). In this way, a far greater degree of samādhi is developed than is actually necessary for the attainment of fruition; and so the k has arūpa attainments that he does not actually need to reach nibbāna.

The minimum strength of samādhi that is necessary for fruition is as follows: for arahattā and anāgāmitā, jhāna strength is needed (the first jhāna is enough)—see Mahāmālunkya Sutta, M. 64: i,432-37; for sakadāgāmitā and sotāpatti full jhāna is not needed—see A. IX,12: iv,378-82[b]—but it is necessary to have the samādhi nimitta (which comes long before jhāna)—see A. VI,68: iii,422-3.[ see sutta extract below ] But the samādhi can be developed either separately beforehand (as explained above) or together with paññā, and presumably in cases where there is attainment simply on listening to the Buddha it is the latter. (I am aware that there has been a controversy about whether jhāna is or is not necessary for the attainment of sotāpatti, but, as so often in controversies, the disputants have gone to extremes. Those who assert that jhāna is necessary believe—rightly or wrongly—that their opponents are maintaining that no samādhi at all is necessary. But the fact of the matter is that some samādhi is necessary, but not full jhāna; and this may or may not, have been developed independently of paññā.)

....

A. VI,68: '"One not delighting in solitude could grasp the sign of the mind (cittassa nimittam)": such a state is not to be found. "One not grasping the sign of the mind could be fulfilled in right view": such a state is not to be found. "One not having fulfilled right view could be fulfilled in right concentration": such a state is not to be found. "One not having fulfilled right concentration could abandon the fetters": such a state is not to be found. "One not having abandoned the fetters could realize extinction": such a state is not to be found.'

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 08, 2011 7:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:So the point is?

Dependent origination is dependent upon avijja and sankhara, whether or not these two are explicitly denoted in any given dependent origination sequence.
Which is something that would be said by any "three lifer," but that is was not the point of my question.

Let us do this over:
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Alright, explained a different way... there are many sankhata dhamma present at one time, yet you can only place attention on any one of those dhammas at a time.

For that one dhamma, if you're mindful, you can see it rise (and the cause for its arising) and its cessation... that particular sankhata dhamma can be said to have ceased, but that is still against a background of other formed sensory and mental activity (sankhara).

The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present.

MN 44 wrote:"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

Metta,
Retro. :)
Okay. So the point is?
"What is the point?" obviously did not get at what I wanted to ask.

Alright, explained a different way... there are many sankhata dhamma present at one time, yet you can only place attention on any one of those dhammas at a time. For that one dhamma, if you're mindful, you can see it rise (and the cause for its arising) and its cessation... that particular sankhata dhamma can be said to have ceased, but that is still against a background of other formed sensory and mental activity (sankhara).
Is the nature -- sabhaava -- of that one dhamma we were able to see any different from the nature -- sabhaava -- of any of the other potential dhammas of which were not aware?

The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present.
It doesn't matter.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 08, 2011 7:34 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Is the nature -- sabhaava -- of that one dhamma we were able to see any different from the nature -- sabhaava -- of any of the other potential dhammas of which were not aware?

No.
retrofuturist wrote:The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present.

tiltbillings wrote:It doesn't matter.

On the contrary, I think it does.

MN 44 wrote:"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 08, 2011 7:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Is the nature -- sabhaava -- of that one dhamma we were able to see any different from the nature -- sabhaava -- of any of the other potential dhammas of which were not aware?

No.
Then to see the nature of one dhamma is to see the nature of all dhammas.
tiltbillings wrote:
The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present.
It doesn't matter.

On the contrary, I think it does.[/quote]In what way does it matter?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 08, 2011 7:41 am

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:In what way does it matter?

Because it recognises only how a small selected fraction of the entire panorama of present existence is not-self. There are so many other places for the false perception of self to hide, whilst you're there looking at that one sankhata dhamma in isolation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 08, 2011 7:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:In what way does it matter?

Because it recognises only how a small selected fraction of the entire panorama of present existence is not-self. There are so many other places for the false perception of self to hide, whilst you're there looking at that one sankhata dhamma in isolation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
So, the answer is to suppress the places where self can hide by jhana so that the "false perceptions can hide all the more.


There are so many other places for the false perception of self to hide, whilst you're there looking at that one sankhata dhamma in isolation.
I am not sure what you mean by this, but this, if it meant so, is not an appropriate description of vipassana practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 08, 2011 7:55 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:I am not sure what you mean by this, but this, if it meant so, is not an appropriate description of vipassana practice.

I'm talking about Samma Samadhi which leads to vipassana. Whether you call that "vipassana practice", I don't know.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 08, 2011 7:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:I am not sure what you mean by this, but this, if it meant so, is not an appropriate description of vipassana practice.

I'm talking about Samma Samadhi which leads to vipassana. Whether you call that "vipassana practice", I don't know.
So, one must have full jhana?
tilt wrote:
retro wrote:There are so many other places for the false perception of self to hide, whilst you're there looking at that one sankhata dhamma in isolation.
I am not sure what you mean by this, but this, if it meant so, is not an appropriate description of vipassana practice.
Please explain what you mean here. Your position is not at all clear.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 08, 2011 8:07 am

Greetings Tilt,

OK... returning to this from MN 44...

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

If you can bring about the cessation of all bodily formations, you know that all bodily formations are anicca, anatta and dukkha.

If you can bring about the cessation of all verbal formations, you know that all verbal formations are anicca, anatta and dukkha.

If you can bring about the cessation of all mental formations, you know that all mental formations are anicca, anatta and dukkha.

If you can only know that a fraction of what you presently experience is anicca, anatta and dukkha, there is a remainder that you are not directly observing with panna... you are therefore, presently oblivious to their anicca, anatta and dukkha attributes.... therefore you're knowing a fraction and believing the rest.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 08, 2011 8:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

OK... returning to this from MN 44...

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."

If you can bring about the cessation of all bodily formations, you know that all bodily formations are anicca, anatta and dukkha.

If you can bring about the cessation of all verbal formations, you know that all verbal formations are anicca, anatta and dukkha.

If you can bring about the cessation of all mental formations, you know that all mental formations are anicca, anatta and dukkha.

If you can only know that a fraction of what you presently experience is anicca, anatta and dukkha, there is a remainder that you are not directly observing with panna... you are therefore, presently oblivious to their anicca, anatta and dukkha attributes.... therefore you're knowing a fraction and believing the rest.

Metta,
Retro. :)
So, you must know every last bit of conditioning by experiencing every last bit of conditioning?

If you can bring about the cessation of all mental formations, you know that all mental formations are anicca, anatta and dukkha.
And you do not think vipassana practice, albeit Mahasi Sayadaw or U Ba Khin style, cannot do this?

therefore you're knowing a fraction and believing the rest.
If one truly knows, sees, the nature of one dhamma, then one sees/knows the nature of all dhammas. There is no belief in that. It is what one would experience. Why would it be otherwise?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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