DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 08, 2011 8:20 am

Hi Retro,

Since the cessation of perception and feeling attainment in MN44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html is said to be accessible only to non-returners and arahants I don't see the relevance of it to vipassana for most of us...

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 08, 2011 8:23 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So, you must know every last bit of conditioning by experiencing every last bit of conditioning?

You must know that there is a cessation of present formations, in order to know the cessation of formations is preferable to the presence of formations, and to know, rather than simply believe, that there can be nirodha.

And you do not think vipassana practice, albeit Mahasi Sayadaw or U Ba Khin style, cannot do this?

I don't know, it's not for me to say. I'm not talking about particular techniques.

If one truly knows, sees, the nature of one dhamma, then one sees/knows the nature of all dhammas.

Alternatively, one sees and knows that "whenever I watch a fragment of my experience, I know that this delineated fragment is anicca and therefore anatta"... but there is no uprooting of "I" in the investigation of delineated fragments of experience, when there is a concurrent remainder not viewed with panna.

There is no belief in that. It is what one would experience. Why would it be otherwise?

Because it is unconfirmed inference.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 08, 2011 8:24 am

Greetings Mike,

Maybe it is precisely because they do see and know this that they are indeed non-returners and arahants?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 08, 2011 8:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So, you must know every last bit of conditioning by experiencing every last bit of conditioning?

You must know that there is a cessation of present formations, in order to know the cessation of formations is preferable to the presence of formations, and to know, rather than simply believe, that there can be nirodha.
I am certainly not talking about "believing," and "believing" is certainly not part of the goal of vipassana practice.

And you do not think vipassana practice, albeit Mahasi Sayadaw or U Ba Khin style, cannot do this?

I don't know, it's not for me to say.
It kind of reads as if you are leveling a critique against the Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin sort of practice, something that might come out Nanavira.

If one truly knows, sees, the nature of one dhamma, then one sees/knows the nature of all dhammas.

Alternatively, one sees and knows that "whenever I watch a fragment of my experience, I know that this delineated fragment is anicca and therefore anatta"... but there is no uprooting of "I" in the investigation of delineated fragments of experience.
And you think that this is how vipassana practice works?

There is no belief in that. It is what one would experience. Why would it be otherwise?

Because it is unconfirmed inference.
If the nature of dhammas is the same, once one has insight, it is not so hard to see the nature of any experienced dhamma in terms of anicca, dukkha, and anatta.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 08, 2011 8:37 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Maybe it is precisely because they do see and know this that they are indeed non-returners and arahants?

Well I can't locate a where it is said explicitly in a Sutta, perhaps it's from the commentaries, but this is the sort of statement one sees:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=140
Ñāṇa wrote:The attainment of cessation (nirodhasamāpatti) is the same as the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti). It is only non-returners and arahants who can attain the eight attainments (the four jhānas plus the four formless attainments) who can properly engage in the cessation attainment. Other arahants cannot. ...

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 08, 2011 8:40 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Maybe it is precisely because they do see and know this that they are indeed non-returners and arahants?

Well I can't locate a where it is said explicitly in a Sutta, perhaps it's from the commentaries, but this is the sort of statement one sees:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=140
Ñāṇa wrote:The attainment of cessation (nirodhasamāpatti) is the same as the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti). It is only non-returners and arahants who can attain the eight attainments (the four jhānas plus the four formless attainments) who can properly engage in the cessation attainment. Other arahants cannot. ...

:anjali:
Mike
Yes. That level of practice is not nercessary for full bodhi.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 08, 2011 8:51 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:I am certainly not talking about "believing," and "believing" is certainly not part of the goal of vipassana practice.

You're right, it's not.

tiltbillings wrote:It kind of reads as if you are leveling a critique against the Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin sort of practice, something that might come out Nanavira.

No.

tiltbillings wrote:And you think that this is how vipassana practice works?

Well, if you're going to talk of a thing called "vipassana practice", you'll have to tell me. It's not my term. I'm just talking about what would happen if you delineated a fraction of experience as a dhamma, and watched this dhamma from its arising to its cessation.

tiltbillings wrote:If the nature of dhammas is the same, once one has insight, it is not so hard to see the nature of any experienced dhamma in terms of anicca, dukkha, and anatta.

In which case, we'd all be ariyans.... and if we're not, then why not? What's the gap?

Perhaps it's the "if" in the start of your sentence that acknowledges the application of inference to the remainder of experience not packaged into this individual formed dhamma?

Perhaps it is the act of forming (fabricating) the dhamma itself rather than the subject matter (i.e. the frame rather than the picture), which is what is worth knowing to be anicca, anatta or anicca? (i.e. sabbe sankhara... remembering that formations are a product of ignorance, as opposed to products of the "outer world")?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 08, 2011 9:21 am

retrofuturist wrote: I'm just talking about what would happen if you delineated a fraction of experience as a dhamma, and watched this dhamma from its arising to its cessation.
You point to MN 44, which is a way, but is not THE way of attaining awakening, nor is the sort of jhanic cessation all that is described in that text a necessity.

tiltbillings wrote:If the nature of dhammas is the same, once one has insight, it is not so hard to see the nature of any experienced dhamma in terms of anicca, dukkha, and anatta.

In which case, we'd all be ariyans.... and if we're not, then why not? What's the gap?
It is harder than one could imagine, but not impossible and one's efforts can yield results.

Perhaps it's the "if" in the start of your sentence that acknowledges the application of inference to the remainder of experience not packaged into this individual formed dhamma?
You are going to have to account for those arahants who do not reach the level of jhana described in MN 44, whose insight is based upon "lesser" meditative experience.

Perhaps it is the act of forming (fabricating) the dhamma itself rather than the subject matter (i.e. the frame rather than the picture), which is what is worth knowing to be anicca, anatta or anicca? (i.e. sabbe sankhara... remembering that formations are a product of ignorance, as opposed to products of the "outer world")?
And vipassana practice is certainly up to that task.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 08, 2011 9:27 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:You point to MN 44, which is a way, but is not THE way of attaining awakening, nor is the sort of jhanic cessation all that is described in that text a necessity.

Sure. There are other ways to 'stop forming'.

tiltbillings wrote:You are going to have to account for those arahants who do not reach the level of jhana described in MN 44, whose insight is based upon "lesser" meditative experience.

Only if I claimed that was the only way to 'stop forming' (which I didn't, so I don't need to account for it). An arahant has stopped forming but is not endlessly in the midsts of deep jhana. Bahiya stopped forming. The point is stopping the forming and not taking the formed to exist.

retrofuturist wrote:Perhaps it is the act of forming (fabricating) the dhamma itself rather than the subject matter (i.e. the frame rather than the picture), which is what is worth knowing to be anicca, anatta or anicca? (i.e. sabbe sankhara... remembering that formations are a product of ignorance, as opposed to products of the "outer world")?

tiltbillings wrote:And vipassana practice is certainly up to that task.

Well I'm pleased to hear it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 09, 2011 10:39 pm

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So, you must know every last bit of conditioning by experiencing every last bit of conditioning?

tiltbillings wrote:Is the nature -- sabhaava -- of that one dhamma we were able to see any different from the nature -- sabhaava -- of any of the other potential dhammas of which were not aware?

retrofuturist wrote:The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present.

tiltbillings wrote:It doesn't matter.

Mahasi Sayadaw, Brahmavihara Dhamma, p93 wrote:The knowledge and perception of the cessation of all rupas and namas is "magga-nana"

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 09, 2011 10:55 pm

Hi Retro,
Mahasi Sayadaw, Brahmavihara Dhamma, p93 wrote:The knowledge and perception of the cessation of all rupas and namas is "magga-nana"

It would be useful to know the context.

Which page is it in this PDF?
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/brahmavihara.pdf

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 09, 2011 10:59 pm

Greetings Mike,

Page 207 in that issue. If you're after context, the preceding pages back to at least page 201 are relevant.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 09, 2011 11:01 pm

Thanks. Here's another reference:

http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... hKnowledge
15. Path Knowledge (magga-ñāna)

It is followed immediately by knowledge that abides in that same Nibbāna, which is void of formations since it is the cessation of them. This is called "path knowledge." {43} It is also called "purification by knowledge and vision."

[43] "Path knowledge" is the knowledge connected with the four supramundane paths of stream-entry, etc. Here, in this passage, only the path of stream-entry is meant. Path knowledge, like maturity knowledge, lasts only for one moment of consciousness, being followed by the fruition knowledge resulting from it, which may repeat itself many times and may also be deliberately entered into by way of the "attainment of fruition" (see Knowledge 17).

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 09, 2011 11:10 pm

Hi Retro,

OK, so you're quoting passages about the fruition attainment. In the progress of insight model in the texts you are quoting this is the cumulative result of the practice, not an approach to practice. The approach is to observe phenomena (among other things like building concentration and following other aspects of the path...(. According to the texts the result appears to happen "automatically". Though I probably should not speak for him, I think that's where Tilt's question is coming from.

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 09, 2011 11:27 pm

Greetings Mike,

Actually, the approach I'm endorsing is nothing more than bhavana through samma sati and samma samadhi.

In this topic, Tilt has actively denounced the role of jhana (samatha, as a component of samma samadhi) in developing direct knowledge of the three characteristics and in gaining knowledge that 'sabbe sankhara dukkha'. Yet, in the aforementioned text Mahasi Sayadaw speaks highly of the tandem/combined use of of metta-jhana and insight. Likewise, I'm sure Goenkaji doesn't start approximately the first third of his courses off with anapanasati for no reason either. Whereas, when I advised Tilt that "The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present." he just said, "It doesn't matter".

Tilt seems of the opinion that progress can be made merely by observing the arising and cessation of a single sankhata dhamma, in the absence of samatha, and inferring from that that 'sabbe sankhara dhamma'. On the contrary, the available suttas and instructions from respected vipassana teachers suggest there's a certain level of samadhi required in order to do the needful and attain magga. By way of simile, it's like the necessity for an aircraft to generate a certain velocity on the runway before it is able to take off... by contast, merely taxi-ing around the runways, your altitude relative to the ground remains zero.

mikenz66 wrote:OK, so you're quoting passages about the fruition attainment.

Well, actually path (magga). I don't regard magga and phala as synonymous.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby daverupa » Mon May 09, 2011 11:50 pm

retrofuturist wrote:I don't regard magga and phala as synonymous.


Since they aren't, this is good.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 10, 2011 12:00 am

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:OK, so you're quoting passages about the fruition attainment.

Well, actually path (magga). I don't regard magga and phala as synonymous.

Sure, sorry, misprint... However whichever nana we discuss, they are what arises as a result of practice, not the method of practice.

And I don't think that Tilt was saying that building concentration isn't useful. Mahasi's (and almost any) approach obviously builds concentration. I'll leave him to discuss what he meant.

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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 10, 2011 12:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:Tilt seems of the opinion that progress can be made merely by observing the arising and cessation of a single sankhata dhamma, in the absence of samatha, and inferring from that that 'sabbe sankhara dhamma'.
Now you are shamelessly putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about "inferring." "Inferring" is your bugbear. An apology is in order.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 10, 2011 12:44 am

retrofuturist wrote:Tilt has actively denounced the role of jhana (samatha, as a component of samma samadhi) in developing direct knowledge of the three characteristics and in gaining knowledge that 'sabbe sankhara dukkha'. Yet, in the aforementioned text Mahasi Sayadaw speaks highly of the tandem/combined use of of metta-jhana and insight. Likewise, I'm sure Goenkaji doesn't start approximately the first third of his courses off with anapanasati for no reason either. Whereas, when I advised Tilt that "The further into jhana one goes, the less sankharas are present." he just said, "It doesn't matter".
Actually, you have not understood much of what I have said here. Mike has made an important distinction that has been lost on you in terms of what is being talked about here and he has been quite accurate as to what I have been saying.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 10, 2011 2:20 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Tilt seems of the opinion that progress can be made merely by observing the arising and cessation of a single sankhata dhamma, in the absence of samatha, and inferring from that that 'sabbe sankhara dhamma'.
Now you are shamelessly putting words in my mouth. I said nothing about "inferring." "Inferring" is your bugbear. An apology is in order.


To be clear, on page 8, in two separate posts, you said...
Is the nature -- sabhaava -- of that one dhamma we were able to see any different from the nature -- sabhaava -- of any of the other potential dhammas of which were not aware?
...
If one truly knows, sees, the nature of one dhamma, then one sees/knows the nature of all dhammas. There is no belief in that. It is what one would experience. Why would it be otherwise?

Now, from that, I made a sincere assessment of what "seems" to be your position, as I read it. Given the quotes above, I don't think it's unfair or involved of any leaps of logic... and there was certainly no malice intended in the restatement of the perception of your position. If it is indeed a straw-man, me restating your position as I understand it gives you the opportunity to clarify your position for my edification.

If I demanded an apology for every time the shoe has been on the other foot over the past month or two, you'd be sick of hearing of it by now. I haven't demanded apologies when you have regularly misrepresented or misunderstood my position for the reason that I have taken it on good faith that you are attempting to understand the position I am presenting. Your demand for an apology makes me question whether you're taking my interactions in similar good faith. Perhaps khanti (patience) and an attitude of persisting to explain, whilst I persist to understand might be preferable to feeling slighted when you are not understood. If definitions of terms or key assumptions regarding the Dhamma preclude such alignment, it would be good to try articulating what those constraints are, so we are at least clear on where and why we "agree to disagree".

tiltbillings wrote:Actually, you have not understood much of what I have said here. Mike has made an important distinction that has been lost on you in terms of what is being talked about here and he has been quite accurate as to what I have been saying.

... and if someone is prepared to point it out, I'm prepared to listen.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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