DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

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tiltbillings
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:One can try to exorcise rebirth from paticcasamuppada by reading part of it figuratively and part of it literally, as some do
Yes, some may do, but that's not what I'm advocating. No 'figuratively' or 'literally' at play... just 'phenomenologically', understanding the terms as the Buddha explained (and as he himself experienced prior to becoming Buddha), rather than as how some unenlightened translator rendered them, presumably through the lens of commentaries. So no need to exorcise "rebirth", because it's not there in the first place.
That is an interpretation, but not the only one.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Sure, as I said to TMingyur, there's many possible ways to approach it.

What I will say though is that if approached phenomenologically, you can see each element at play in this very lifetime, and therefore actively use the teaching on dependent origination, across all nidanas, to understand how suffering comes to be and how true "sabbe sankhara dukkha" really is. If aspects are consigned to other lives, it is as if accepting that unless one can see past lives or foresee future lives, that these teachings and the causality they detail, cannot be relevant for us, here and now... and can be only, by necessity, articles of faith.

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by Sylvester »

retrofuturist wrote:As for "With the cessation of my clinging comes the cessation of becoming. With the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. With the cessation of birth then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease.".... if jati is understood to be "literal post-mortem rebirth", then "literal post-mortem rebirth" has to cease before "sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease"... meaning that an arahant (or Buddha, for that matter) cannot bring an end to dukkha in this lifetime. No hop, skips and jumps around the nidanas, at face value, it is there.
Hi retro

I think that's a fairly unfair reading of MN 75.

Firstly, note the iti markers being used for everything between "These are diseases...." up to "...mass of suffering". A teaching was being given to Magandiya to constantly recollect, and it says nothing about "when" suffering ends. A causative link is merely given for the reason for the ending of dukkha. The fact that the Buddha began the exposition from the "cessation of clinging", instead of the standard "cessation of ignorance", speaks volumes. I don't find it a coincidence that clinging is the bridge between "present" life and the "future" life's bhava, as presented in the 3 Lives model.

Secondly, "nirodha" of jati can just as easily be understood as non-arising of jati, given the 2-fold formulation of Dependant Cessation in iddapaccayata's -
Imasmim asati, idam na hoti. Imassa nirodha, idam nirujjhati
Oh, look, it's the locative absolute yet again!

I think if you are looking for a sutta which touches on the end of dukkha in this lifetime, perhaps SN 12.45 would be more instructive. There, the Buddha teaches that the cessation of suffering is traceable to the cessation of craving, but the Buddha does not extend the cessation analysis backwards towards the conditioned arising of feelings and contact beforehand.

I think I now realise what might have gone wrong with some modern variants of DO. The problem may originate from the identification of Arahanta with Dependant Cessation's "Cessation of Avijja". The objection is then raised that the 3 Lives model is meaningless to the Arahant, since the Arahant's destruction of Avijja must mean that all the subsequent nidanas cease to apply thereafter.

But is the Cessation of Avijja = Arahanta?

Take a look at how Avijja is defined in SN 12.2, where it is equated to not knowing the 4 Noble Truths. Compare that to series of suttas in the Abhisamayavagga of the SN's Saccasamyutta. There, the "breakthrough" made by the Stream Enterer is identified as "understanding the 4 Noble Truths".

So, it looks as if Avijjanirodha is not describing Arahanta, but Stream Entry, with the potential for 7 more lives at most. I think it should be clear how the temporal unravelling of suffering plays out in a Stream Enterer, something that fits in quite nicely with a multiple life model of DO.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Sure, as I said to TMingyur, there's many possible ways to approach it.

What I will say though is that if approached phenomenologically, you can see each element at play in this very lifetime, and therefore actively use the teaching on dependent origination, across all nidanas, to understand how suffering comes to be and how true "sabbe sankhara dukkha" really is. If aspects are consigned to other lives, it is as if accepting that unless one can see past lives or foresee future lives, that these teachings and the causality they detail, cannot be relevant for us, here and now... and can be only, by necessity, articles of faith.
The reality is, of course, that paticcasamuppada is couched within the broader context of rebirth, which why I quoted those three texts (which could be multiplied considerably). I do not see paticcasamuppada as having to be an either-or.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:The reality is, of course, that paticcasamuppada is couched within the broader context of rebirth, which why I quoted those three texts (which could be multiplied considerably).

I would say instead that paticcasamuppada is couched within the broader context of samsara. Those three texts, like dependent origination, can be read through many frames of reference... I of course choose phenomenologically, and they do not present any incongruence.
tiltbillings wrote:I do not see paticcasamuppada as having to be an either-or.
Likewise. What is true in this life about dukkha and nirodha, would appear to be true in any life for any "being"... but you can only work with the present, and the Dhamma being timeless and open to inspection, it's all visible now.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:But is the Cessation of Avijja = Arahanta?
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance " does allow scope for intermittent oscillation between vijja and avijja for the sekha, but not for the arahant. That takes account of your observation that a sekha can have vijja, without recourse to a multiple-life DO model of transmigration.

Accordingly the multiple lives interpretation would mean that "from the remainderless fading & cessation" there are in fact 2 more lives to go before nirodha is complete! i.e sankhara -> vinnana, and bhava -> jati... clearly not "birth has ended", is it? Remember, what arises in the forward DO, is what ceases in the cessation DO... and you can't go jumping horses and changing definitions mid-stream!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by piotr »

Hi Retrofuturist,
retrofuturist wrote:the Dhamma being timeless and open to inspection, it's all visible now.
You keep on repeating that. I'd like to know how you came on conclusion that “svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi” actually means that.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:You keep on repeating that. I'd like to know how you came on conclusion that “svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi” actually means that.
How about, instead, you tell me what you think it means... and we can see what our points of difference are, and see if/how/why you find it objectionable.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by piotr »

Hi Retrofuturist,

I think that it refers to nirodha, which can be attained in this life (sandiṭṭhiko), one doesn't have to wait for death to come to attain it (akāliko), and so on.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by Sylvester »

retrofuturist wrote:Accordingly the multiple lives interpretation would mean that "from the remainderless fading & cessation" there are in fact 2 more lives to go before nirodha is complete! i.e sankhara -> vinnana, and bhava -> jati... clearly not "birth has ended", is it? Remember, what arises in the forward DO, is what ceases in the cessation DO... and you can't go jumping horses and changing definitions mid-stream!

Careful with that. Just because the Commentaries ascribe a 3 Lives model to Dependant Origination does not mean that they cornered themselves into a 3 Lives model for Dependant Cessation. :tongue:

PS - do the Commentaries posit 3 temporally-contiguous lives, or simply present life with any past life and any future life, in the 3 Lives model?
Last edited by Sylvester on Sun May 01, 2011 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Careful with that. Just because the Commentaries ascribe a 3 Lives model to Dependant Origination does not mean that they cornered themselves into a 3 Lives model for Dependant Cessation. :tongue:
Careful with that... you might be inferring that they changed their definitions of what arises versus what ceases midstream. :D
Sylvester wrote:PS - do the Commentaries posit 3 temporally-contiguous lives, or simply present life with any past life and any future life, in the 3 Lives model?
Try making sense of the explanation in the Visuddhimagga and then tell you can tell me. :tongue: Honestly, I think it's the latter.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:I think that it refers to nirodha, which can be attained in this life (sandiṭṭhiko), one doesn't have to wait for death to come to attain it (akāliko), and so on.
I think it refers to the Dhamma (as in, the Buddha's teaching). Dependent origination is a subset of that Dhamma.
MN 38 wrote:"Good, O, Bhikkhus, I have led you in this Dhamma which is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves. It was in reference to this that it was said: 'Bhikkhus, this Dhamma is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves'."
Setting aside for the moment that this sutta explicitly says "I have led you in this Dhamma which is..." - since "nirodha" is "cessation", it's hard to see how cessation itself could be said to be "leading onwards". Nirodha is the destination, not the journey or the roadmap.

Hence, "the Dhamma being timeless and open to inspection, it's all visible now."

I agree with you though that nirodha is sandiṭṭhiko and akāliko.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by piotr »

Hi Retrofuturist,
retrofuturist wrote:Setting aside for the moment that this sutta explicitly says "I have led you in this Dhamma which is..." - since "nirodha" is "cessation", it's hard to see how cessation itself could be said to be "leading onwards". Nirodha is the destination, not the journey or the roadmap.
I think that Dmytro offered us a great help in understanding that term:
  • Margaret Cone's dictionary gives more meanings for 'opanayika':
    • opanayika, mfn. [from upanaya; BHS aupanayika],
      fit for bringing near, for taking to oneself;
      fit for making use of;
      deserving to be used;...
    and interprets 'opaneyyika' as:
    • opaneyyika, mfn. [=opanayika qv], fit for bringing near; Sadd 787,27 (opanayiko va opaneyyiko sa"nkhato lokuttaradhammo attano cittena upanayana.m sacchikiriyaavasena alliiyana.m arahatiiti opaneyyiko); 788,2 (upaneyyo va upaneyyiko).
    on the basis of Commentaries.

    http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5730" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Piotr,

Even still, it's hard to see how it fits to nirodha more than it does to the Dhamma (e.g. "fit for making use of")

Anyway, it only came in discussion because you objected (?) to me using it with reference to the Dhamma. Seeing MN 38 and those comments from Dmytro, I trust you no longer object?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: DO not depending on avijja and sankhara?

Post by gavesako »

These kids in Thailand (7 year olds) seem to have no problem reciting and understanding Dependent Origination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X3H6AND ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(skip to minute 1:12)

:roll:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
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