mikenz66 wrote:Hi Tilt,
This article has quite a lot of Sutta analysis:
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(3) A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhānas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhānic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment.
Mike
Hi Tilt, Mike
'Sota' or 'stream' means the Noble eightfold path. 'To enter the stream' means to enter the noble eightfold path, fully...and that includes right concentration defined as the 1-4 jhanas. BB seems to be inclined towards the dry insight camp in that article of his. I'm not here to argue the case of the jhanas- I have yet to see anyone who didn't have the jhanas reach stream entry.. but maybe that is due to viriya levels required for both -a 'confounder' if I am correct in my research terminology. I have also yet to come across a 'dry' insight meditation master who didn't have jhanas, even though they will always talk in praise of dry insight. Ultimately the path will take care of all of this, one way or the other. I have come to see jhana as something more than the deep 'eyes closed' type of attainment- the suttas while talking of that type of jhana as well, seems to be talking of a type of jhana where consciousness can become focused on that 'plane' as it were while apparently living in the kama loka. Then going further it can become focused on the arupa and finally even the nibbana 'dathu' - the unfocused eyes of the living arahanth.
There is something about cessation (see the anupubbanirodha sutta) it all fades away along the jhana continuum.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You could say that this cessation (or withdrawal) happens 90 degrees to our experience. What is left is nibbana:
I have attempted to string some sutta together to make some sense of the the DO and how to practice it.
Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way.
"The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is the prerequisite for the knowledge of ending? Release, it should be said. Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present... Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note that, the practice here seems to be one of
yonisomanasikara- an active contemplation..
"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:
"'When this is, that is.
"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
"'When this isn't, that isn't.
"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
"'In other words:
"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'
"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.[1] Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The practice then, is to develop disenchantment, dispassion etc.. this is possible either through yonisomanasikara -'mere knowledge and remembrance..' (see Silavant sutta) or through pure mindfulness (satipattana- would love to see a sutta talking of satipatthana leading to dispassion cessation etc).
"If a monk teaches the Dhamma for the sake of disenchantment, dispassion, & cessation with regard to birth, he deserves to be called a monk who is a speaker of Dhamma. If he practices for the sake of disenchantment, dispassion, & cessation with regard to birth, he deserves to be called a monk who practices the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma. If — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, and lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to birth — he is released, then he deserves to be called a monk who has attained Unbinding in the here-&-now.
[Similarly with becoming, clinging/sustenance, craving, feeling, contact, the six sense media, name & form, and consciousness.]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The cessation of the paticca-nirodha leaves some interesting 'things' 'behind'..
"Now, ignorance is bound up in these things. From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance, there no longer exists [the sense of] the body on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the speech... the intellect on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists the field, the site, the dimension, or the issue on account of which that pleasure & pain internally arise."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"If anyone, through disenchantment with decay-and-death, through dispassion [leading to] its cessation, is liberated from grasping, that suffices for him to be called one who has attained Nibbaana in this life."[6]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Ajita:]
Discernment & mindfulness,
name & form, dear sir:
Tell me, when asked this,
where are they brought to a halt?
[The Buddha:]
This question you've asked, Ajita,
I'll answer it for you —
where name & form
are brought to a halt
without trace:
With the cessation of consciousness
they're brought
to a halt.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with metta
Matheesha