The Buddha's path to liberation

[whynotme]

I see your effort. Actually this is the type of discussion I love, but I see my knowledge and experience is not enough yet. Just wish you best wishes

Regards.

[starter]

Dear Hanzze, whynotme, and other friends,

Thanks for the comments.

I've to admit I don't really understand what exactly the noble right intention/thought is as explained in SĀ 785 & MN 117:

MN 117:
And what is the right resolve that is without "leaks", transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, (mental) fixity, transfixion (penetrate and resolve?), focused awareness, & verbal fabrications (?) of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without "leaks", who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without "leaks", transcendent, a factor of the path.

SĀ 785:
What is right intention/thought that is noble, supramundane, without "leaks", without grasping, that
rightly eradicates dukkha and turns towards the transcendence of dukkha? This is reckoned to be:
a noble disciple attends to suffering and contemplates suffering; attends to the cause of suffering and contemplates the cause; attends to the cessation of suffering and contemplates the cessation; attends to the path and contemplates the path; in the (temporary) absence of defilements (while in deep Samadhi) contemplates each Dhamma (non-sensuality/non-ill will/non-harming?), discriminates each (intention/thought) (as wholesome/beneficial or not?), resolves each (intention/thought as wholesome/beneficial or not?), understands each, count each ("verbal fabrications" as in MN 117, but what it means?) and make resolution for right intention/thoughts.

何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，無漏思惟相應心法，分別、自決、意解、計數、立意，是名正志，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。

Hope to get some input about this. Metta to all!

[daverupa]

Hope to get some input about this. Metta to all!

Try setting the mundane/supramundane dichotomy to one side (and, as a result, definitions which revolve around that). It's not attested very often, is probably late, and reflects Indian thinking in general, rather than Dhammic thinking in particular, it seems to me. The whole thing generates more questions than it answers - rather, it seems to me to be ad hoc reasoning with the goal of squaring teachings on anatta with indigenous merit practices, and as such isn't at all important to an understanding of the Dhamma, as I understand it.

From the earlier paper:

Closer scrutiny of the discourse itself shows that some of the Pāli terms used in the Mahācattārīsaka-sutta’s definition of supramundane right intention, such as “fixing” (appanā) of the mind and “mental inclination” (cetaso abhiniropanā), are not found in other discourses and belong to the type of language used only in the Abhidharma and historically later Pāli texts.

Try something simple: intentions of renunciation, non-ill-will, and harmlessness. These general guidelines, as a definition, are deficient in which way(s)?

[santa100]

starter wrote:
"...verbal fabrications (?)..."

The MN 117 version as tranlasted by Ven. Thanissaro ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ):
"And what is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct (lying, divisive talk, abusive speech, idle chatter) of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right speech that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."

[starter]

Hello daverupa, santa100 and other friends,

I listened to the sutta teaching of Ven. Bodhi on MN 117, and understood now in MN 117 a number of synonyms describing the same mental factor/faculty were used for the noble right intention/thought (intentional thinking): thinking, thought, intention, directing/inclination of the mind + fixation of the mind + absorption of the mind (on an intention/thought -- non-sensuality, or non-ill will, or non-cruelty); this mental factor is responsible for verbal formation (speech).

As to those terms used in SĀ 785 and SĀ 789 describing the noble right intention/thought, they have a bit deeper meaning into the intentional thinking process: discriminate, resolve, understand, repeatedly incline/direct the mind (計數?) and make resolution for right intention/thoughts. [何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦、苦思惟，集……滅……道、道思惟，無漏思惟相應心法，分別、自決、意解、計數、立意，是名正志，是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊。]

Also a number of synonyms describing the same mental factor (wisdom) were used for the noble right view in MN 117 and SĀ 785 : discriminate (a view as right or wrong view "分別邪正、真妄", "抉擇正見"), investigate and inquire, breakthrough and realize (what's wrong view and what's right view). [何等為正志是聖、出世間、無漏、不取、正盡苦、轉向苦邊？謂：聖弟子苦苦思惟。集(集思惟)。滅(滅思惟)。 道道思惟。無漏思惟相應。於法選擇。分別推求。覺知黠慧。開覺觀察。]

These three suttas (MN 117, SĀ 785 and SĀ 789) are indeed different from the other suttas in how they defined the N8P -- instead of defining the path factors in terms of results, they defined the path factors more in terms of mental faculties/processes, helping us understand how to obtain those results. The most helpful aspect of the two Agama suttas is that they teach those who have understood 4NT how to perfect each path factor by using the transcendental/supramundane approach of 4NT, instead of only the mundane approach of the Kamma law. The mundane understanding of Kamma causation-consequence can only lead to rebirth in a good destination because such understanding is not enough to eradicate ignorance, sensual desire and desire for continued existence, and hence it's the mundane path. Only the comprehension of 4NT and its application in our practice can lead to Nibbana, and hence it's the supramundane path. It's not that the noble path throws away the 8 path factors, but that it employs a more powerful approach (together with the mundane approach) to perfect each path factor, to my understanding.

It's important that we use our independent/critical thinking to discriminate and investigate if a sutta teaching is genuine or not, instead of depending upon inference/here sayings -- this is exactly the noble right view that these three suttas teach us.

Metta to all!

[vinasp]

Hi starter,

Even though I have been studying the Nikayas for twenty years, I still do not understand MN 117.

"And what is the right resolve that is without asava's, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, (mental) fixity, transfixion, focused awareness, & verbal fabrications of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without asava's, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without asava's, transcendent, a factor of the path."

Here are some thoughts, which may, of course, be completely wrong.

1. The phrase 'noble path'. Could it be that that the 'transcendent' sections are not
talking about the noble eightfold path, but about a noble path? Perhaps the noble
eightfold path is what is called the learners path (sekha), and that there is a final
section for the non-learner (asekha). This is sometimes called the 'tenfold path' and
sometimes the 'arahants path'.

2. The phrase '(one) whose mind is without asava's'. This is very puzzling. Many
passages which seem to be describing enlightenment speak of the destruction of the
three asava's. It is usually understood that an arahant has destroyed these three
asava's, and that this represents the end of the path.

But, perhaps the destruction of the three asava's represents the completion of the
learners path. This would mean that the 'transcendent' sections of MN 117 are speaking
of a non-learner.

This could be discussed on another thread if you wish.

Regards, Vincent.

[starter]

Hi starter,

Even though I have been studying the Nikayas for twenty years, I still do not understand MN 117.
--It might be too bold for me to comment on your understanding of the sutta as a starter who has studied it for only a couple of times; but I'll try.

"And what is the right resolve that is without asava's, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, (mental) fixity, transfixion, focused awareness, & verbal fabrications of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without asava's, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without asava's, transcendent, a factor of the path."

Here are some thoughts, which may, of course, be completely wrong.

1. The phrase 'noble path'. Could it be that that the 'transcendent' sections are not
talking about the noble eightfold path, but about a noble path? Perhaps the noble
eightfold path is what is called the learners path (sekha), and that there is a final
section for the non-learner (asekha). This is sometimes called the 'tenfold path' and
sometimes the 'arahants path'.
--I agree with you that the 'noble path' here means a particular path (Right intention/thought) instead of the whole N8P. The section for the non-learner (who hasn't understood 4NT) is what I call the mundane path, which aims at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 path factors and the understanding of 4NT. The section for the trainee (sekha, who has understood 4NT) is what I call the Noble path, which aims at the perfection of the 8 path factors leading to the fruits of Right knowledge and Right liberation ("10-fold path").

2. The phrase '(one) whose mind is without asava's'. This is very puzzling. Many
passages which seem to be describing enlightenment speak of the destruction of the
three asava's. It is usually understood that an arahant has destroyed these three
asava's, and that this represents the end of the path.

-- The Chinese translation of asavas ("leaks") can mean not only the three root defilements ("leak" for sensual desires, "leak" for being/becoming, and "leak" for ignorance), but also not intact/perfect in something -- only when something has a "leak", the "influxes" can come in and "effluxes" can go out. I'd interpret the phrase 'the right resolve that is without asava's' as 'the right resolve that is being perfected', therefore "who is fully possessed of the noble path (of right solve)".

I tend to interpret the phrase '(one) whose mind is without asava's' as '(one) whose mind is without wrong resolve (being perfected in right resolve'), especially because it's immediately followed by the phrase 'who is fully possessed of the noble path'.

Just my two cents, which could be wrong. Metta to all!

[vinasp]

Hi starter,

It seems that you have not understood my post correctly. This is my fault, I should
have taken more trouble to explain clearly.

The passage which I quoted was just an example to show the words used. I took one of your
quotes, and edited it. But I was commenting on the whole of MN 117.

starter: "I agree with you that the 'noble path' here means a particular path (Right intention/thought) instead of the whole N8P."

You misunderstood me here. What I meant was that the path from stream entry to
non-returner, which has eight factors, is called the learners (sekha) course (path).
The final part, from non-return to arahant, which has ten factors, is called, in MN 117,
'the noble path'.

starter: " The section for the non-learner (who hasn't understood 4NT) is what I call the mundane path, which aims at the effacement of 10 unwholesome deeds, establishment of the 8 path factors and the understanding of 4NT."

In the four Pali Nikaya's, the asekha (non-learner) is a higher stage than the sekha
(learner). The one who has not yet understood the 4NT is the puthujjana (worldling,
or the ordinary man).

starter: "The section for the trainee (sekha, who has understood 4NT) is what I call the Noble path, which aims at the perfection of the 8 path factors leading to the fruits of Right knowledge and Right liberation ("10-fold path")."

What I would say is this: The section for the trainee (sekha, who has understood 4NT)
is what I call the 'trainee's course', it has eight factors and is the first, and main
part of the noble eightfold path, up to non-returner. Beyond this the path has ten
factors. This final part of the path is called, in MN 117, the noble path.

Because 'this world' has ceased for a non-returner, and he has arisen in the 'other
world', the last part of the path is called 'lokuttara' (world transcending, supramundane, transcendent.)

These are just some ideas, do not worry if they make no sense to you.

Kind regards, Vincent.

[SarathW]

[quote="starter"]Dear daverupa, Hanzze and other friends,

Thanks for the very helpful comments and reference, which led to the finding of the following Agama sutta, which clearly explained the two paths (mundane 8-fold path and supramundane 8-fold path):

Hi Starter- Thanks for providing some infomation about Agama sutta. Can a none Buddhist possess Mundane Right View. For example say Bodhisatta or Jesus Christ?

[starter]

Hello SarathW, vinasp and other friends,

Thanks for your comments. As to SarathW's question about mundane right view, here is the Buddha's definition:

'And what is the right view that has assavas ["leaks" (not being perfected)], sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' [MN 117]

It seems to me that a none Buddhist can possess mundane right view. However, since s/he isn't following the Buddha's teaching, s/he wouldn't be walking the Buddha's 8-fold path toward the understanding of 4NT (the supramundane right view), and won't enter the Noble 8-fold path toward Nibbana. Therefore, a Bodhisatta will have to stay in Samsara until all his paramis are perfected and then become a self-enlightened Buddha, without a teacher. We are lucky to be born in an era when the Buddha's teaching is still accessible, so as long as we follow his teaching and walk the 8-fold path we can become enlightened and liberated even within this life time.

Metta to all!