Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

[Zom]

As we can see from the above quoted sutta, the Tathagata dwelling with "unrestricted awareness" is freed, dissociated, and released from consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) as well as from the death, so there is indeed another type of undefiled/undeceptive, unrestricted, undying/unborn, sorrowless awareness in living arahants, occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling (as the consciousness ceases), but it's not the aggregate of consciousness.

Why not to tell then that there is also another type of undefiled/undeceptive, unrestricted, undying/unborn body, feeling, perception, formations ...?

[starter]

To my understanding of AN 10.7, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained is indeed "the cessation of perception and feeling", and I remember that several suttas mentioned he was liberated by obtaining the concentration of "the cessation of perception and feeling". In such an attainment, feeling, perception and consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) cease together. To me the word "perception" has two different designations in the sutta, one means the mundane perception (the perception of five aggregates), and another one (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding) is a transcendental "perception" that arises as the mundane perception ceases. It's probably better for us to have a more complete understanding of such different designations of important words in their respective contexts in the suttas to avoid biased views, misunderstandings and confusions.

The following suttas might be of help to understand "the unborn, ...", but please read these suttas (also the ones I cited before) carefully without any previously formed bias/notions before you make your judgments:

"... There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned", ... "escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned" (Ud8:3/80).

"... the unborn, unaging, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage" (MN 26.18).

"... the supreme foundation of truth, whose nature is undeceptive and which ranks as the supreme noble truth" (MN 140.26)

33 synonyms for Nibbana (SN 43.1-44):
1. The Unconditioned
2. The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
3. The Uninclined
4. The taintless
5. The truth
6. The other shore
7. The subtle
8. The very difficult to see
9. The unaging
10. The stable
11. The undisintegrating
12. The unmanifest
13. The unproliferated
14. The peaceful
15. The deathless
16. The sublime
17. The auspicious
18. The secure
19. The destruction of craving
20. The wonderful
21. The amazing
22. The secure
23. The unailing state
24. The unafflicted
25. The passionless
26. The Pure
27. Freedom
28. Non attachment
29. The island
30. The shelter
31. The asylum
32. The refuge
33. The ultimate (The destination and the path leading to the destination)

I hope these teachings won't be regarded as those of Hindhu's about Atman. As I understand, Hindu's teachings only refer to the conditioned phenomena within the five aggregates as eternal "self" because they cannot see the unconditioned. Actually the Buddha taught us that nibbana is causeless, timeless and imperishable. Of course it doesn't mean that we should take it as "self". Nibbana is NOT "I", "mine". The sense of "self" is the result of the "magic show" of mind consciousness. It appears to me that the Buddha didn't teach we should hold the view that we have no self, but rather, he teaches us to remove any view of self:

“View the world, … as empty — always mindful to have removed any view about self [e.g. "I have a self" or "I have no self"]. This way one is above & beyond death. This is how one views the world so as not to be seen by Death's king.” — Sn 5.15

Metta to all,

Starter

[Zom]

To my understanding of AN 10.7, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained is indeed "the cessation of perception and feeling", and I remember that several suttas mentioned he was liberated by obtaining the concentration of "the cessation of perception and feeling". In such an attainment, feeling, perception and consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) cease together. To me the word "perception" has two different designations in the sutta, one means the mundane perception (the perception of five aggregates), and another one (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding) is a transcendental "perception" that arises as the mundane perception ceases. It's probably better for us to have a more complete understanding of such different designations of important words in their respective contexts in the suttas to avoid biased views, misunderstandings and confusions.

According to Theravada, your understanding is incorrect. There is no such thing as "transcendental perception". All kinds of perception are constructed and impermanent. But - perception can have different objects to perceive. For example, this can be mundane object - or nibbana, which is not mundane.

There is a number of suttas where Buddha directly says that there is no any kind of perception or consciousness that would not be impermanent. If there were - he would say about that.

[starter]

Hi, thanks for your input and help to all my threads!

Here is another question:

sabba-saṅkhāra-samatha: stilling of all mental constructions, or stilling of all volitions / conditioned formations?

This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all (karmic) volitions (for living arahants, nibbana with residue) or all (conditioned) formations (for arahants at death, nibbana without residue), the relinquishing of all foundations (of existence – volition as the basis for the stationing and establishment of consciousness SN12.40), the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation (of cravings for living arahants or of conditioned existence for arahants at death), Nibbana.

It appears to me that the understanding of Nibbana as “the stilling of all mental constructions” could be misleading, which could lead to the practice of “emptiness” (of mental constructions) or “the sound of silence” as the goal of the path. When we contemplate Nibbana, it's important to know what to contemplate.

To my understanding, the third Noble truth should be the relinquishing of craving as taught in SN 56.11, not the stilling of all mental constructions, or not even the stilling of all volitions (we still need wholesome volitions to practice the Buddha’s path). The stilling of all volitions or conditioned formations (nibbana) is the fruit of the relinquishing of craving. The third NT is not equal to Nibbana, but the correct understanding of Nibbana is necessary in order to have the right goal of the path.

SN56.11:

Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is suffering, separation from the loved is suffering, not getting what is wanted is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of suffering: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for not-becoming (not in certain states; I don't agree with the translation of non-becoming or non-existence.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve (and right thoughts), right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

Metta to all!

[Mr Man]

which could lead to the practice of “emptiness” (of mental constructions) or “the sound of silence” as the goal of the path.

How could the practice of "emptiness" or “the sound of silence” be taken as the goal of the path?

[starter]

Hi it appears to me that some teachers might have understood "emptiness" (of mental constructions) as nibbana. If you like, you can do a Google search for the translation of the sentence about Nibbana: "This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, the stilling of all ...". You'll come up with "the stilling of all mental constructions (formations) ...".

With metta!

[SarathW]

Hi Starter I understand where you coming from.
What is your interpretation or understanding of Radiant Consciousness. How does this fit with Nirvana or in terms of Consciousness not Established?
Metta
Please read
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15567

[starter]

Hi Sarath,

I would rather translate "Radiant Consciousness" into "unbound mind" or undefiled mind (of living arahants as mentioned in AN 10.7, MN111 and AN 10.81). In case you didn't read my earlier post about it, I'm copying it here to save you searching. Hope other friends wouldn't mind the repetition:

"AN 10.7
PTS: A v 8
Sariputta Sutta: With Sariputta
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004–2012

Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception ... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."

"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': [u]One perception arose in me as another one ceased[/U]. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

As I understand from this sutta, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained here is the highest attainment "the cessation of perception and feeling", since all the other possible types of formless concentration (including neither perception nor feeling) are excluded. What ceased in this attainment is only the cessation of perception of five aggregates; as this mundane perception ceases, another transcendental perception arises during the concentration, which is the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding', nibbana. Therefore, it appears to me that in MN 111 "And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom" occurs during (not after) the concentration of the cessation of perception and feeling, and his mind become freed from barriers of defilements that the Buddha described in the following sutta:

AN 10.81:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unbound mind?

Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from volitions... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind.

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unbound mind.

As we can see from the above quoted sutta, the Tathagata dwelling with "unbound mind" is freed, dissociated, and released from defilements, and also from the five aggregates including consciousness as well as from the birth/death.

Metta to all!

[SarathW]

Hi Starter
Thanks.
Your wrote:
As we can see from the above quoted sutta, the Tathagata dwelling with "unrestricted awareness" is freed, dissociated, and released from consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) as well as from the death, so there is indeed another type of undefiled/undeceptive, unrestricted, undying/unborn, sorrowless awareness in living arahants, occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling (as the aggregate consciousness ceases), but it's not the aggregate of consciousness" (which is beyond the five aggregates).
---------------
I thinks this issue is discussed in another link:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16082

Please note that Buddha avoid any question in relation to whether things exist or not. I think that everything is dependent originated except Arahantship.

[Dmytro]

Hi,

Since the expression "viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" occurs only in two suttas, in a rather enigmatic context, and without explanation, it's hard to say anything certain about it.

There's much more clear and detailed concept of "appatiṭṭhitaṃ viññāṇaṃ" of an Arahant, and it is explained how exactly the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) ceases thanks to viññāṇa being appatiṭṭhita.

Best wishes, Dmytro

[starter]

Hello Dmytro: Thanks for your input. Would you mind telling me the Pali words for "unrestricted awareness" that the Buddha described in AN 10.81? Is this an accurate translation?

Hello SarathW: indeed the Buddha taught us that all conditioned dhamma are just dependencies, but not the unconditioned dhamma Nibbana, which is beyong dependencies. "Existence"/"non-existence" also only apply to the conditioned Dhamma, and don't apply to Nibbana.

Metta to all!

[Dmytro]

Hello Starter,

Hello Dmytro: Thanks for your input. Would you mind telling me the Pali words for "unrestricted awareness" that the Buddha described in AN 10.81? Is this an accurate translation?

The "mind free from boundaries" translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi is a more literal translation, while "unrestricted awareness" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is more artistic and understandable in experience.

Note that this isn't an Arahant-only thing, as can be seen from Anupada sutta.

The related term "appamāṇacetasa" is helpful here:

“There is the case where a monk, when seeing a form via the eye, is, in the case of pleasing forms, committed to forms and, in the case of displeasing forms, afflicted by forms. He remains with body-mindfulness not present, and with limited awareness. And he does not discern, as it actually is present, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen cease without trace.

“ When hearing a sound via the ear ...When smelling an aroma via the nose...When tasting a flavor via the tongue...When touching a tactile sensation via the body...

“ When cognizing an idea via the intellect, he is, in the case of pleasing ideas, committed to ideas and, in the case of displeasing ideas, afflicted by ideas. He remains with body-mindfulness not present, and with limited awareness. And he does not discern, as it actually is present, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen cease without trace.

[…]

“ And when a monk dwells in this way, forms overpower him. He does not overpower forms. Sounds overpower him... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas overpower him. He does not overpower ideas. This is called a monk overpowered by forms, overpowered by sounds, overpowered by aromas, overpowered by flavors, overpowered by tactile sensations, overpowered by ideas — one overpowered who does not overpower. He is overpowered by evil, unskillful qualities that defile, that lead to further becoming, that are miserable, that result in suffering & stress, that tend toward future birth, aging, & death.

[…]

“ There is the case where a monk, when seeing a form via the eye, is not, in the case of pleasing forms, committed to forms nor, in the case of displeasing forms, afflicted by forms. He remains with body-mindfulness present, and with immeasurable awareness. And he discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen cease without trace.

“ When hearing a sound via the ear ...When smelling an aroma via the nose...When tasting a flavor via the tongue...When touching a tactile sensation via the body...

“ When cognizing an idea via the intellect, he is not, in the case of pleasing ideas, committed to ideas nor, in the case of displeasing ideas, afflicted by ideas. He remains with body-mindfulness present, and with immeasurable awareness. And he discerns, as it actually is present, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen cease without trace.

[…]

“ And when a monk dwells in this way, he overpowers forms. Forms do not overpower him. He overpowers sounds... aromas... flavors... tactile sensations... ideas. Ideas do not overpower him. This is called a monk who overpowers forms, overpowers sounds, overpowers aromas, overpowers flavors, overpowers tactile sensations, overpowers ideas — one who overpowers and is not overpowered. He overpowers evil, unskillful qualities that defile, that lead to further becoming, that are miserable, that result in suffering & stress, that tend toward future birth, aging, & death.”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"On seeing a form with the eye he does not become greedy for pleasant forms, or averse to disagreeable forms. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasurable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no becoming; no becoming, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

"On hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a smell with the nose, tasting a taste with the tongue, feeling a touch with the body, thinking a thought with the mind, he does not become greedy for pleasant experiences, or averse to disagreeable ones. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasurable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no becoming; no becoming, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

http://leighb.com/mn38.htm

Metta, Dmytro

[pulga]

There's much more clear and detailed concept of "appatiṭṭhitaṃ viññāṇaṃ" of an Arahant, and it is explained how exactly the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) ceases thanks to viññāṇa being appatiṭṭhita.

Hi Dmytro,

I don't have the time right now to read over it, but that appears to be an interesting link you've directed us to. I intend to print it out and to take a closer look at it later.

Thank you for all your time and effort: you're truly an asset to this forum.

[starter]

Hello Dmytro,

Thanks for your great help. As I can see from the two suttas you recommended, this “unrestricted awareness” or "mind free from boundaries" or “immeasurable mind” is still an Arahant-only thing, since Ven. Sariputta was an Arahant “with an awareness rid of barriers”, and the monk with “an immeasurable (unlimited) mind” is also clearly an Arahant who has gained complete liberation. However, it’s clear from both suttas that this “unrestricted awareness” not only occurred during the concentration of cessation of perception and feeling, but also afterwards.

What I understood from both suttas is that the liberated mind is freed from the barriers of defilements, which is not bound/limited/restricted by defilements. I tend to think “mind free from boundaries (of defilements)" or “unbound mind” is a better translation since the translation of “unrestricted awareness” could be misleading, which could confuse the readers with another type of Arahant-only consciousness. Although based upon AN 10.7 there appears to be another transcendental perception (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding') that arises during the concentration of the cessation of perception and feeling, I’d like to change the “unrestricted awareness” into "undefiled mind" or "unbound mind", which is freed, dissociated, and released from five aggregates including consciousness as well as from birth/death, according to AN 10.81. Likewise, Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is the mind empty of defilements:

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [non-manifestive mind, mind (is) non-indicative or non-manifestive or empty of volitions and defilements, free from name and form]
= appatiṭṭha viññāṇa [unestablished mind, with consciousness unestablished/unstationed, not established upon name and form]
= "Mind without barriers" ["unrestricted mind", pure mind devoid of defilements]
= Living Arahant’s mind
= Nibbana

Metta to all!

[Gena1480]

i have to agree about nibbana
that nibbana is experience of abandon fetters
if you regard the path and fruit of steam enter as nibbana
for example if you abandon self
this self fetter does not come back
what can not come back , you cant establish your consciousness in that
on whats not there
consciousness experiencing no object (what has been extinguish)or abandon
unestablished consciousness
but what has been abandon can not be experience
is this consciousness that experience , what cannot be experience is nibbana
can someone help me if there is any sutta that says something to the effect
that says that a steam enter path or fruit is regarded as nibbana ?

[Dmytro]

Hello Starter,

Thanks for your great help. As I can see from the two suttas you recommended, this “unrestricted awareness” or "mind free from boundaries" or “immeasurable mind” is still an Arahant-only thing, since Ven. Sariputta was an Arahant “with an awareness rid of barriers”, and the monk with “an immeasurable (unlimited) mind” is also clearly an Arahant who has gained complete liberation.

Well, as explained in the footnote:

"The Commentary states that the half month mentioned here refers to the half month between Ven. Sariputta's ordination and his attainment of arahantship, described in MN 74."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta, Dmytro

[Gena1480]

i just realized that my mind is defiled
i just cant answer if undefiled mind is nibbana
dmytro should i abandon the practice of studying suttas in order to understand nibbana
and concentrate on my defiled mind.
my thinking is that who ever does not understand depending origination
does not go beyond this world
am i jumping to far ahead
is defiled mind can not understand depending origination
metta

[Dmytro]

Hi Gena,

i just realized that my mind is defiled

Can you notice the precise defilements at work, when there are less of them, and when there are more of them?
Then you may notice how the direction of attention plays a key role in this.

As explained in Samudaya sutta (SN 47.42),

"With the origination of attention there is the origination of mental behavior [enlightenment factors originate through fundamental attention (yoniso manasikara); hindrances originate through non-fundamental attention]. With the cessation of attention there is the passing away of mental behavior".

i just cant answer if undefiled mind is nibbana

When you will comprehend in practice how defilements arise and vanish due to direction of attention, you will be closer to comprehending Nibbana - the cessation of all defilements.

dmytro should i abandon the practice of studying suttas in order to understand nibbana
and concentrate on my defiled mind.

Study of the suttas needs to be aligned with inner study, - learning what happens in the mind, and due to what conditions.
Defiled mind isn't worth concentrating upon - it's much better to explore how defilement arise and cease.

If you have something inspiring, to which you can direct attention, and thus at least temporarily make defilements decrease or vanish, - that would be something worth to keep in mind.

is defiled mind can not understand depending origination

Conditioned Arising (aka depending origination) is an extensive field of study. One has to start somewhere, even though the mind is defiled.
Comprehending how direction of attention conditions arising and passing away of defilements (and enlightenment factors as well) may be an excellent place to start.