Mental objects as vipaka?

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phil
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Mental objects as vipaka?

Post by phil »

Hello all

Vipaka includes mental objects, right? Does that mean thoughts are vipaka? The stray mental junk that comes and goes during meditation, for example, such as thoughts about what went earlier in the day etc...are they to be understood as vipaka? Or is there a pre-thought mental element that is the vipaka, and thoughts arise from it, as a response to the vipaka... hope that makes sense...


Thanks for any feedback.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Alex123
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Re: Mental objects as vipaka?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Phil,

Very interesting question, I wonder the answer myself. It seems to me that if the thoughts such as lustful or hating are kamma, then they are not vipāka. Also often the thoughts themselves are expression of one's desires. Since desire is active kamma, so perhaps mental kamma is made when thoughts appear.

Idle chatter is considering to be bad kamma (breaking the precept), so if one has idle chatter in one's mind, is it still considered to be bad kamma and breaking the precept?

With best wishes,

Alex
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phil
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Re: Mental objects as vipaka?

Post by phil »

Alex123 wrote:Hello Phil,

Very interesting question, I wonder the answer myself. It seems to me that if the thoughts such as lustful or hating are kamma, then they are not vipāka. Also often the thoughts themselves are expression of one's desires. Since desire is active kamma, so perhaps mental kamma is made when thoughts appear.

Idle chatter is considering to be bad kamma (breaking the precept), so if one has idle chatter in one's mind, is it still considered to be bad kamma and breaking the precept?

With best wishes,

Alex
Thanks Alex, you helped to clarify my question. There is mental akusala kamma patha, which must obviously be thinking/thoughts. So what is the vipaka that conditions that kamma? It is pretty easy to understand how visible object thst is vipaka conditions an akusala kamma in response, but what is the vipaka that conditions for example thinking, while meditating ,about an attractive person you saw earlier in the day? Your eyes are closed, there is no visible object, so the vipaka is a formed concept, the image of the person? Surely that is a product of thinking rather than vipaka...
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Alex123
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Re: Mental objects as vipaka?

Post by Alex123 »

Thinking could be an actual thing that one does in this moment. Ultimately current idle chatter, holding wrong views, etc, is not dependent on previous kamma.


"Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems to me that wisdom requires effort in the here and now. The more wise one is, the more one is going to restraint what is happening now, no matter how hard it is. IMHO doing what is right is an aspect of wisdom.

IMHO.

With metta,

Alex
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phil
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Re: Mental objects as vipaka?

Post by phil »

Alex123 wrote:Thinking could be an actual thing that one does in this moment. Ultimately current idle chatter, holding wrong views, etc, is not dependent on previous kamma.


"Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems to me that wisdom requires effort in the here and now. The more wise one is, the more one is going to restraint what is happening now, no matter how hard it is. IMHO doing what is right is an aspect of wisdom.

IMHO.

With metta,

Alex
Thanks Alex. This topic is perhaps in the imponderable arena. It's definitely easiest to understand thinking as presently performed action. The reason I ask about this is because of a teaching I mentioned in another post some week backs, which continues to kind of intrigue me. When we're meditating, discriminating between the present results of past deeds, the present deeds, and the immediate results of those present deeds. It's very attratctive to sit and meditate and understand the mental chatter as playing out of past kamma, and the pleasant states associated with meditation (tranquility for me) as immedate results of what we're doing. THere is a whole lotta lobha involved with this though, a lot of seeking of pleasant mental states by using the breath. It feels more like some kind of yoga to me, but that is fine, the mind is learning to find pleasure in something that is a lot less harmful than where it usually finds pleasure, as far as I can see...

Anyways, to stop rambling, I guess my question is still related to wondering how mental chatter during meditation can be vipaka. Useful to think it is, but technically I guess it isn't...but that's cool. My priority is to weaken the power of very strong kilesas, no matter how. My kind of samattha meditation, whether pseudo samattha or not, is helping enormously.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Alex123
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Re: Mental objects as vipaka?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Phil, all,

I was very interested in the whole "freedom of will or not" a while back ago. It seems to me that the prudent thing is to just do your best regardless how bad the current situation is. Everyone has to start where there are, and even the future-Buddha-Gotama-to-be was in hell in at least one life. Regardless whether the present moment is totally vipaka or kamma, fatalistically predetermined to happen or not, do your best. Maybe putting lots of effort NOW is totally conditioned and was fatalistically predetermined aeons ago.

Even if there is absolutely no control at all in any case, still the teaching of "do your best, and start from where you are because that is the only place you can ever start with" is a good conditioning factor. The proper conditions will be present only if they are made. Perhaps the reason why we aren't yet awakened is because we waited for the right moment "later, when situation gets better", for all those past aeons of samsara.

Tomorrow never comes, it is always "tomorrow".
Better conditions never come until one actually makes them, and the only time to make them is now.

I will be away on seminars from today until Monday (june 6).
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phil
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Re: Mental objects as vipaka?

Post by phil »

Thanks Alex. Yes, well said. Sorting out vipaka from kamma in our experience/behaviour is a topic where insight may or may not develop but there are more pressing urgencies re the Dhamma, especially for people like me who must deal constantly with transgression level defilements...

Enjoy the seminars...
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Mental objects as vipaka?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

I skimmed through the thread so I don't know if anybody mentioned this, but I read the following: a student asked his teacher why he/she never saw lights when meditating? The teacher answered that it was a good thing that he/she did not had the karma of experiencing distracting lights. I think he meant vipaka. But I don't know if that teacher was qualified enough to say such thing.

Food for thought :popcorn:
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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