Vipassana vs Theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

pilgrim wrote: Vajrayana also teaches Vipashyana, but it does not appear as important as their tantric meditations.
I think you could say that tantric practice is a tool for developing vipashyana.

Spiny
hermitwin
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by hermitwin »

I believe the Theravada view is that samadhi leads ultimately to 4 stages of enlightenment. This is in the sutta.
Under the Burmese Mahasi Sayadaw and Ledi sayadaw, the emphasis
is that vipassana is more important than samadhi.
Why the obssession with vipassana, I dont understand.
Ajahn chah said ' samadhi and vipassana are like the 2 sides of your hand,
you cant really separate them'
Ayya Khema said' vipassana is not a meditation method, it is the result of meditation. I repeat, vipassana is not a meditation method, it is the result of meditation. '
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

hermitwin wrote:I believe the Theravada view is that samadhi leads ultimately to 4 stages of enlightenment. This is in the sutta.
Under the Burmese Mahasi Sayadaw and Ledi sayadaw, the emphasis
is that vipassana is more important than samadhi.
Why the obssession with vipassana, I dont understand.
Ajahn chah said ' samadhi and vipassana are like the 2 sides of your hand,
you cant really separate them'
Ayya Khema said' vipassana is not a meditation method, it is the result of meditation. I repeat, vipassana is not a meditation method, it is the result of meditation. '
Do you actually know anything about the Mahasi Sayadaw method of practice?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
hermitwin
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by hermitwin »

Yes, it is the 1st place I learned meditation.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

hermitwin wrote:Yes, it is the 1st place I learned meditation.
Okay, but what is the source of your above comment?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
hermitwin wrote:Under the Burmese Mahasi Sayadaw and Ledi sayadaw, the emphasis is that vipassana is more important than samadhi.
Mahasi Sayadaw wrote:It is also necessary to practice samadhi or concentration. Samadhi is the fixed or tranquil state of mind. The ordinary or undisciplined mind is in the habit of wandering to other places. It cannot be kept under control, but follows any idea, thought or imagination, etc. In order to prevent this wandering, the mind should be made to attend repeatedly to a selected object of concentration. On gaining practice, the mind gradually abandons its distractions and remains fixed on the object to which it is directed. This is samadhi.
There are two kinds of concentration: mundane concentration (lokiya-samadhi) and supramundane concentration (lokuttara-samadhi). Of these two, the former consists in the mundane absorptions, such as the four rupa-jhanas — the absorptions pertaining to the world of form — and the four arupa-jhanas — the absorptions pertaining to the formless world. These can be attained by the practice of tranquillity meditation (samatha-bhavana) with such methods as mindfulness of breathing, loving-kindness (metta), kasina meditation, etc.
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el370.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ledi Sayadaw wrote:The antithesis of concentration (samadhi) is distraction (vikkhepa) of mind (i.e., wandering thoughts and idle fancies). It is the inability to concentrate, to control the mind and keep its attention fixed on one object. It is the arising of thoughts on objects other than the object of concentration. It is the unquiet and restless state of mind when applying itself to the work of meditation. Ordinary concentration cannot dispel the unwholesome state of distraction. Only developed concentration (bhavana-samadhi) can do it.
Source: http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh171-p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Ben »

Thanks Retro!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

hermitwin wrote:I believe the Theravada view is that samadhi leads ultimately to 4 stages of enlightenment. This is in the sutta.
Under the Burmese Mahasi Sayadaw and Ledi sayadaw, the emphasis
is that vipassana is more important than samadhi.
Not at all. Mindfulness and concentration are both equally required, but I think it is imprtant to understand the context of the Mahasi Sayadaw practice. It was developed as a way of practice that could be taught to groups of laity, people who are not professional contemplatives. This footnote from some unknown book helps put into context the emphasis of practice:
  • Cf. Mahasi 1990:PP.17and 21:"the actual method of practice in vipassanii meditation is
    to ... observe ... the successive occurrences of seeing, hearing, and so on, at the six
    sense doors. However, it will not be possible for a beginner to follow these on all successive
    incidents as they occur, because his mindfulness, concentration and knowledge
    are still very weak. ... A simpler and easier form of the exercise for a beginner is
    this: With every breath there occurs in the abdomen a rising-falling movement. Abeginner
    should start with the exercise of noting this movement." Mahasi 1992: P.7S:
    "we used to instruct the yogi whose powers of concentration have strengthened to
    extend this method ofmeditation to noting all that happens at his six sense doors." Ba
    Khin 1985=P.94: "in fact one can develop the understanding of anicca through any of
    the six organs of sense. In practice, however, we have found that ... the feeling by
    contact of touch ... is more tangible than other types of feeling and therefore a beginner
    in Vipassanii meditation can come to the understanding of anicca more easily
    through bodily feelings .... This is the main reason we have chosen the body feelings
    as a medium for the quick understanding of anicca. It is open to anyone to try other
    means, but my suggestion is that one should have oneself well established in the
    understanding of anicca through bodily feelings before an attempt is made through
    other types of feeling."
The point here is a practice for the laity that can be taught in groups that helps cultivate insight early on in the practice as mindfulness and concentration are increasingly cultivated.

The other thing that needs to be understood is that jhana is not emphasized in this practice in the early stages is because jhana, as they understood it was in terms as it was taught in the Visuddhimagga. Take a careful look at this msg: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 6&p=140097" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The reality is, however, that the level of concentration cultivated by Mahasi Sayadaw type vipassana practice looks, according some people, a lot like jhana described in the suttas.

You might find it of interest and of value to listen to these two talks by these two vipassana teachers:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/?search ... =-rec_date" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19944
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote: You might find it of interest and of value to listen to these two talks by these two vipassana teachers:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/?search ... =-rec_date" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Those are extremely good talks, which I re-listened to yesterday and today as a result of some conversations I've had recently had with Dhamma friends about places where one's practice can easily get stuck.
[I mentioned some of my "stuckness" experiences in this thread: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11240].

:anjali:
Mike
dhamma_newb
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:36 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by dhamma_newb »

Thanks tilt! I really appreciate the great links and resources you provide in the forums. :anjali:
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
Walt Whitman
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

dhamma_newb wrote:Thanks tilt! I really appreciate the great links and resources you provide in the forums. :anjali:
Thank you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Buckwheat
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Buckwheat »

pilgrim wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:... perhaps their bodhisattva vows result in an emphasis on the development of paramis rather than insight which leads to liberation. Just my speculation.
One of the six Mahayana paramitas is wisdom, which requires insight. The six are dana (generosity), sila (ethics), kshanti (patience), virya (effort), dhyana (concentration), prajna (wisdom). I'm not very familiar with Tibetan, but the Rinpoches seem pretty wise.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4018
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Goofaholix »

tiltbillings wrote:The reality is, however, that the level of concentration cultivated by Mahasi Sayadaw type vipassana practice looks, according some people, a lot like jhana described in the suttas.
I've listened to dhamma talks by about half a dozen Burmese Sayadaws of the Mahasi tradition and they all went something like this "Vipassana meditation is like this, Samatha meditation like that, we are practising Vipassana meditation not Samatha meditation".

Maybe the talks were very introductory and/or had to be dumbed down because of having to work through an interpreter, but it did seem like the same dhamma talk each time.

Maybe this is what is informing people's view.

In my opinion Mahasi technique is really a Samatha technique on changing objects. Ultimately whether that leads to insight (vipassana) is dependant on the attitude with which it is practised.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19944
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

There are some interesting comments from Chanmyay Sayadaw here:
http://buddhanet.net/vmed_1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole page is worth reading, but this is perhaps the most relevant part:
So Vipassana meditation is of two types: The first, Vipassana meditation, insight meditation is preceded by Samatha meditation. The second is the pure Vipassana meditation or insight meditation not preceded by Samatha meditation. The first type of Vipassana meditation or Insight Meditation is practised by those who have ample time to devote to their meditation. They have to spend maybe three or four months on Samatha meditation. And when they are satisfied with their attainment of jhana concentration they proceed with Vipassana meditation.

Pure Vipassana meditation is practised by those who haven't enough time to devote to their meditation like yourselves, because you do not have three or four months or six months or a year for your meditation. So you can spend about ten days on your meditation. For such meditators pure Vipassana meditation is suitable. That's why we have to conduct a ten days Vipassana meditation retreat. Actually ten days meditation is not enough. The period is too short a time for a meditator to succeed in any noticeable experience in his meditation. But there are some who have some experience in Vipassana meditation who when their meditation experience becomes major can attain the higher stages of insight knowledge of the body-mind processes of their true nature. Although you can spend just ten days on your meditation, if you strive to attain the deep concentration with a strenuous effort without much interval or break in the course of your meditation for the whole day, then you are able to have some new experience of meditation. So the point is to practise intensively and strenuously as much as you can.
:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Goofaholix wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The reality is, however, that the level of concentration cultivated by Mahasi Sayadaw type vipassana practice looks, according some people, a lot like jhana described in the suttas.
I've listened to dhamma talks by about half a dozen Burmese Sayadaws of the Mahasi tradition and they all went something like this "Vipassana meditation is like this, Samatha meditation like that, we are practising Vipassana meditation not Samatha meditation".
As I said, you have to understand the context, which is when they talk about jhana type concentration they are talking about it in terms of the Visuddhimagga, and as I said, take a look at this msg: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 6&p=140097" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe this is what is informing people's view.
Most likely.
In my opinion Mahasi technique is really a Samatha technique on changing objects. Ultimately whether that leads to insight (vipassana) is dependant on the attitude with which it is practised.
The Mahasi Sayadaw method is, in fact, both.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply