Vipassana vs Theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Passavipa
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Passavipa »

Brizzy wrote:If all else fails, blame the Buddha for being a poor teacher (The sutta's are predominantly the Buddha's words or his close disciples).
The Buddha was certainly not a poor teacher. But the meaning of words & phrases have the potential to become lost or obscured over time. You may have thumbed up my post but did you consider my question about sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī (step 3) and cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī (step 7 of anapanasati)? Do they relate to vipassana? What do they mean, exactly? Your guess is probably as good or as poor as mine.

:)
Brizzy
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Brizzy »

Passavipa wrote:
Brizzy wrote:If all else fails, blame the Buddha for being a poor teacher (The sutta's are predominantly the Buddha's words or his close disciples).
The Buddha was certainly not a poor teacher. But the meaning of words & phrases have the potential to become lost or obscured over time. You may have thumbed up my post but did you consider my question about sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī (step 3) and cittasaṅkhārapaṭisaṃvedī (step 7 of anapanasati)? Do they relate to vipassana? What do they mean, exactly? Your guess is probably as good or as poor as mine.

:)
Both appear to be quite straightforward instructions. Any uncertainty as to their exact meaning can be cleared up by practice - no other way. As for relating to vipassana, they are part of the process aimed at awakening.

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.
Passavipa
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Passavipa »

ancientbuddhism wrote:I prefer to distinguish what are the teachings of the Buddha, as closely as I can discern from the suttas. And as I have none other than the Buddha as Ajahn...
An interesting & suitable case study is the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Many regarded the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu as a renegade & a heretic. Alternately, some of his disciples assert the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu was a "radical conservative", i.e., a strict adherent to the Pali suttas. But in truth, neither were the case.

The late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu certainly had his differences of opinion with much of the Buddhist world about Dependent Origination. However, he probably only chose his interpretation because he personally regarded it has having more value & utility.

But the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did not merely accept or reject Buddhist teachings on the basis of a literal conformity with the Pali Suttas. For example, much of his extensive work on Anapanasati is based on the various Commentaries. Or in the print version of his brief translated work on Paticcasamuppada, the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu said he agreed with 90% of what Buddhaghosa wrote in his Vissuddhimagga.

Similarly, the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu devoted an entire chapter of his work Handbook for Mankind to (Burmese) organised systems of vipassana.

It follows such a case study exemplifies using a criteria based on what is advantageous.

:)
Neither the term Study (Gantha - dhura) nor Vipassana - dhura is mentioned in the Tipitaka, both appearing only in later books; but Vipassana - dhura is nevertheless a genuine Buddhist practice, designed for people intent on eliminating suffering. It is based directly on sustained, concentrated introspection.
Last edited by Passavipa on Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Passavipa
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Passavipa »

Brizzy wrote:Both appear to be quite straightforward instructions. Any uncertainty as to their exact meaning can be cleared up by practice - no other way.
Such subjectivity is certainly not convincing. The "practice" of each individual is not necessarily the same.

If both appear to be quite straightfoward then kindly explain them, thank you, so we & others may compare notes :)
Brizzy
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Brizzy »

Passavipa wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Both appear to be quite straightforward instructions. Any uncertainty as to their exact meaning can be cleared up by practice - no other way.
Such subjectivity is certainly not convincing. The "practice" of each individual is not necessarily the same.

If both appear to be quite straightfoward then kindly explain them, thank you, so we & others may compare notes :)
No, sorry, I think you might find my explanations too subjective and unconvincing.
You actually negate your own question, if each individual practices differently then there will be subtle differences in our understanding of the instructions. I am not advocating an ultra strict rigidity, it is certainly ok to have various approaches to meditation. Where I despair is when the meditation becomes the 'path' or right view is restructured to fit in with meditative experiences.

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
It is not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Buckwheat
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by Buckwheat »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
Let's be careful here. It sounds like some Vipassana meditation groups are just Theravada (like my local group where Vipassana = Theravada) while there are other groups who remove the Buddhism from the meditation method. But this would clearly not be a Buddhist school as they have removed the Buddhism to become a secular group. I assume they do this to draw a wider audience such as business persons and teachers who simply want the mundane benefits of meditation. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as it's open and understood.

It seems to me Goenka clearly falls under the Vipassana = Theravada category, and if anybody wants to criticize Goenka's methods, that is a topic for another thread.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
It is not.
Has Mr Goenka, for example, ever stated he is "Theravadin"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Interesting thread. Never knew that Vipassana was a practice/school separate from The Theravada. Thanks !
It is not.
Has Mr Goenka, for example, ever stated he is "Theravadin"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Are you Theravada?

Why would it matter if he has or has not. If you look at his teachings, they come directly out of Theravada orthodoxy.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Why would it matter if he has or has not.
Only from the perspective that it makes your falsification false.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Why would it matter if he has or has not.
Only from the perspective that it makes your falsification false.

Metta,
Retro. :)
What you are saying makes no sense.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

So the answer then is yes, easy.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Richard Cunningham Patterson Jr's duck test:
  • Suppose you see a bird walking around in a farm yard. This bird has no label that says 'duck'. But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck. Well, by this time you have probably reached the conclusion that the bird is a duck, whether he's wearing a label or not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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