Vipassana vs Theravada

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Fede » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:40 pm

Yin, Yang, Male, female, expansive, reserved,

And no, i'm not being silly.... everything has Yin and everything has Yang, depending on its comparisons.
I would say theravada is Yang, whereas Vipassana is yin.....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:52 pm

Brizzy wrote:Mr Goenka says you can be a Hindu, Moslem, Christian, Jain or Buddhist and still receive the benefits of 'vipassana meditation'. So no, I don't think Mr Goenka would describe himself as a Theravadin or even a Buddhist.
Between the first sentence and the second sentence is a massive jet-packed logical jump. What is needed to fill in that gaps would make the Grand Canyon look like a drainage ditch.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:53 pm

Fede wrote:Yin, Yang, Male, female, expansive, reserved,

And no, i'm not being silly.... everything has Yin and everything has Yang, depending on its comparisons.
I would say theravada is Yang, whereas Vipassana is yin.....
Makes no sense.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Fede » Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:01 pm

Maybe not to you....



OK. :smile:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Gena1480 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:28 am

I'm Theravadian
why because i follow the 8noble path
and 4noble truth
i follow the teaching of elders
so i'm not Jewish or christian because
i do not follow their rules and teachings
you are not Jewish by birth
you are not Christian by birth
you are not Muslim by birth
you are not Brahmin by birth
it is by following the teachings of certain religion
you become one from the religion
metta
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:11 pm

Gena1480 wrote:I'm Theravadian
why because i follow the 8noble path
and 4noble truth
i follow the teaching of elders
so i'm not Jewish or christian because
i do not follow their rules and teachings
you are not Jewish by birth
you are not Christian by birth
you are not Muslim by birth
you are not Brahmin by birth
it is by following the teachings of certain religion
you become one from the religion
metta


Well said, Gena. :thumbsup:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:10 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Gena1480 wrote:I'm Theravadian
why because i follow the 8noble path
and 4noble truth
i follow the teaching of elders
so i'm not Jewish or christian because
i do not follow their rules and teachings
you are not Jewish by birth
you are not Christian by birth
you are not Muslim by birth
you are not Brahmin by birth
it is by following the teachings of certain religion
you become one from the religion
metta


Well said, Gena. :thumbsup:
Okay, but how does that relate to the subject of this thread?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby pilgrim » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:26 am

It is quite clear if Goenka had said he was teaching Buddhism or Theravada, he would have succeeded in reaching a much smaller audience. By cleverly saying he teaches only Vipassana and giving an acceptable rationale why he does so , he benefits a much larger number of people. That was his intention; he was not interested to create more people calling themselves Buddhists. Vipassana is a method that is extracted from the Buddhist teachings and it is developed in Theravada more than the other traditions.
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:31 pm

pilgrim wrote:It is quite clear if Goenka had said he was teaching Buddhism or Theravada, he would have succeeded in reaching a much smaller audience. By cleverly saying he teaches only Vipassana and giving an acceptable rationale why he does so , he benefits a much larger number of people. That was his intention; he was not interested to create more people calling themselves Buddhists. Vipassana is a method that is extracted from the Buddhist teachings and it is developed in Theravada more than the other traditions.


What makes you think that Vipassana is more developed in Theravada than any other practice?

Vipassanā: 'insight', is the intuitive light flashing forth and exposing the truth of the impermanency, the suffering and the impersonal and unsubstantial nature of all material and mental phenomena of existence. It is insight-understanding vipassanā-paññā that is the decisive liberating factor in Buddhism, though it has to be developed along with the 2 other trainings in morality and concentration. The culmination of insight practice see: visuddhi VI leads directly to the stages of Nobility see: visuddhi VII.

Insight is not the result of a mere intellectual understanding, but is won through direct meditative observation of one's own bodily and mental processes. In the commentaries and the Vis.M, the sequene in developing insight-meditation is given as follows: 1. discernment of the material rūpa. of the mental nāma. contemplation of both nāma-rūpa i.e. of their pairwise occurrence in actual events, and their interdependence, 4. both viewed as conditioned application of the dependent origination, paticcasamuppāda 5. application of the 3 characteristics impermanency, etc. to mind-and-body-cum-conditions.

The stages of gradually growing insight are described in the 9 insight-knowledges vipassanā-ñāna constituting the 6th stage of purification: beginning with the 'knowledge of rise and fall' and ending with the 'adaptation to Truth'. For details, see visuddhi VI and Vis.M XXI.

Eighteen chief kinds of insight-knowledge or principal insights, mahā-vipassanā are listed and described in Vis.M XXII, 113: 1: contemplation of impermanence aniccānupassanā 2: of suffering dukkhānupassanā 3: of no self anattānupnupassanā 4: of aversion nibbidānupassanā 5: of detachment virāgānupassanā 6: of ceasing nirodhānupassanā 7: of abandoning patinissaggānupassanā 8: of waning khayānupassanā 9: of vanishing vayānupassanā 10: of change viparināmānupassanā 11: of the unconditioned or signless, animittānupassanā 12: of desirelessness apanihitānupassanā 13: of emptiness suññatāupassanā 14: insight into phenomena which is higher understanding adhipaññā-dhamma-vipassanā 15: knowledge and vision according to reality yathā-bhūta-ñānadassana 16: experience of Danger or danger, ādīnavānupassanā 17: reflecting contemplation patisankhānupassanā 18: contemplation of turning away vivattanānupassanā.

Through these 18, the adverse ideas and views are overcome, for which reason this way of overcoming is called 'overcoming by the opposite' tadanga-pahāna overcoming this factor by that. Thus 1 dispels the idea of permanence. 2 the idea of happiness, 3 the idea of self, 4 lust, 5 greed, 6 origination, 7 grasping, 8 the idea of compactness, 9 kamma-accumulation, 10 the idea of lastingness, 11 the conditions, 12 delight, 13 adherence, 14 grasping and adherence to the idea of substance, 15 attachment and adherence, 17 thoughtlessness, 18 dispels entanglement and clinging.

Insight may be either mundane lokiya or supra-mundane lokuttara. supra-mundane insight is of 3 kinds: 1 joined with one of the 4 supra-mundane paths, 2 joined with one of the fruitions of these paths, 3 regarding the ceasing, or rather suspension, of consciousness see: nirodha-samāpatti.

See: samatha-vipassanā visuddhi III-VII.

Literature: Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw WHEEL 31/32. Practical Insight Meditation, Progress of Insight, both by Mahāsi Sayadaw BPS. The Experience of Insight, by Joseph Goldstein BPS.

source: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_v.htm
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby pilgrim » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:37 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:What makes you think that Vipassana is more developed in Theravada than any other practice?

I said other traditions, not other practices...
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby ndangelo » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:50 pm

Everyone,

I think all this discourse is a positive thing. However, we're getting totally off topic and starting to not make any sense. (Even though the discussions in and of themselves are wonderful intellectual "pockets" of interest.

I am a Theravadan.

Vipassana has always been a technique used by Therevada practitioners. It is not another "flavor" of Buddhism.

Vipassana can be learned by anyone with an open mind and a good teacher. One's belief system need not change.

Perhaps we should move on. I truth I just keep getting more confused with each post I read. I hate to be so dogmatic but this is the way I see it. If someone can give me a three sentence explanation why Vipassana is another "school" of Buddhism – Please tell me.

I mean all of this with love people.

In Metta
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Mr Man » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:39 pm

ndangelo wrote:Everyone,



Perhaps we should move on. I truth I just keep getting more confused with each post I read. I hate to be so dogmatic but this is the way I see it. If someone can give me a three sentence explanation why Vipassana is another "school" of Buddhism – Please tell me.





"Vipassana" has become associated with specific techniques which are practiced by specific groupings. Once people have committed to a particular grouping they are encouraged to stick to it exclusively. Two sentences
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:19 pm

pilgrim wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:What makes you think that Vipassana is more developed in Theravada than any other practice?

I said other traditions, not other practices...


Alright, you asked:
"Vipassana is a method that is extracted from the Buddhist teachings and it is developed in Theravada more than the other traditions."


What makes you think that Vipassana is a method that is developed in Theravada more than in other traditions?
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby pilgrim » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:32 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:What makes you think that Vipassana is more developed in Theravada than any other practice?

Alright, you asked:
"Vipassana is a method that is extracted from the Buddhist teachings and it is developed in Theravada more than the other traditions."


What makes you think that Vipassana is a method that is developed in Theravada more than in other traditions?

Actually I didn't ask, it was an opinion. And that opinion is based on my observation that Vipassana is taught, emphasised, held in great importance, has the most number of teachers, examined, and inspired copious amount of literature among Theravadins than either Mahayana and Vajrayana.
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby chownah » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:48 am

One way to get a rough idea as to which tradition has the most Vipassana teaching and instruction might be to just google "vipassana" and see if the results that come back as the first couple of pages are from predominantly some traditions more than others or if in fact they come back sort of equally distributed.
Rough idea only......statistically not valid but perhaps yielding some insight...
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:49 am

pilgrim wrote:Actually I didn't ask, it was an opinion. And that opinion is based on my observation that Vipassana is taught, emphasised, held in great importance, has the most number of teachers, examined, and inspired copious amount of literature among Theravadins than either Mahayana and Vajrayana.


Is that based on the fact that some Theravada based teachers use the word "Vipassana" to brand name their meditation technique though?

Are most Mahayana techniques concentration rather than insight based in your opinion?

Vipassana is pali for clear seeing, it's the insight that arises often as a result of applying a technique, sometimes due to other causes and conditions, it's not the meditation technique itself.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:51 am

chownah wrote:Rough idea only......statistically not valid but perhaps yielding some insight...


Nice pun.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:55 am

Pilgrim: Actually I didn't ask, it was an opinion.


And I didn't say you asked. I just wanted to know why you thought what you thought out of curiosity. I was the one doing the asking as to why you had formulated your opinion. Having had communications and discussions with many different traditions and attended many different groups with both meditation practice and dhamma study I have never met any Buddhist practitioner who wasn't aware of Vipassana (insight) meditation. That's why I was curious. Thank you for your response and explanation. :anjali:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:59 am

chownah wrote:One way to get a rough idea as to which tradition has the most Vipassana teaching and instruction might be to just google "vipassana" and see if the results that come back as the first couple of pages are from predominantly some traditions more than others or if in fact they come back sort of equally distributed.
Rough idea only......statistically not valid but perhaps yielding some insight...
chownah

Actually, to get other traditions you want to google the Sanskrit spellling, "vipashyana": http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=vipashyana

:anjali:
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Re: Vipassana vs Theravada

Postby pilgrim » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:14 am

Goofaholix wrote:
Is that based on the fact that some Theravada based teachers use the word "Vipassana" to brand name their meditation technique though?

Are most Mahayana techniques concentration rather than insight based in your opinion?

Vipassana is pali for clear seeing, it's the insight that arises often as a result of applying a technique, sometimes due to other causes and conditions, it's not the meditation technique itself.

I think among Mahayana schools, only Zen has significant emphasis on the development of Vipassana as a mental quality. But( in my opinion), its approach is less systematic, precise and sophisticated. Vajrayana also teaches Vipashyana, but it does not appear as important as their tantric meditations. I know too little about the underlying philosophies of these schools, but perhaps their bodhisattva vows result in an emphasis on the development of paramis rather than insight which leads to liberation. Just my speculation.
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