Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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pink_trike
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by pink_trike »

Believing in literal rebirth and not believing in literal rebirth are both just opportunities to build stories, attach to them, defend them, and block potential for clarity.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Aloka
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Aloka »

pink_trike wrote:Believing in literal rebirth and not believing in literal rebirth are both just opportunities to build stories, attach to them, defend them, and block potential for clarity.
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Laurens
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Laurens »

clw_uk wrote:Those people already held a view of rebirth, he was teaching them in terms they would understand


Metta
The flaw I can see in that arguement is that the Buddha normally doesn't have any qualms about telling people when the view that they hold is wrong. Why would he neglect to tell people that the view of rebirth is wrong (if that was the case)?
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Lazy_eye »

Laurens wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Those people already held a view of rebirth, he was teaching them in terms they would understand


Metta
The flaw I can see in that arguement is that the Buddha normally doesn't have any qualms about telling people when the view that they hold is wrong. Why would he neglect to tell people that the view of rebirth is wrong (if that was the case)?
Because the view of rebirth is conducive to the spiritual life, whereas the view of non-rebirth tends to foster nihilism?
Laurens
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Laurens »

Lazy_eye wrote:
Laurens wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Those people already held a view of rebirth, he was teaching them in terms they would understand


Metta
The flaw I can see in that arguement is that the Buddha normally doesn't have any qualms about telling people when the view that they hold is wrong. Why would he neglect to tell people that the view of rebirth is wrong (if that was the case)?
Because the view of rebirth is conducive to the spiritual life, whereas the view of non-rebirth tends to foster nihilism?
Also because he discovered it to be the truth for himself?
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Cittasanto
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Cittasanto »

that would depend if it is an absolute metaphysical statement, or a reflective statement!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Lazy_eye »

I've found it somewhat helpful to consider rebirth in terms of its function within the dhamma, rather than in an absolute metaphysical sense. Two reasons:

I haven't seen what the Buddha saw, so any statement I make would boil down to "I believe and accept", "I don't believe", or "I don't know". At the same time, though, we can all make supportable (or not) statements about how rebirth impacts other teachings, such as kamma or merit; how it relates to the overall goal of liberation; how it accords with the Buddha's critique of materialism; why it's a skillful view; etc. So we can have a fruitful discussion.

For beginners, or at least a certain kind of beginner, this can be a way of getting beyond one's kneejerk resistance to the teaching. I can attest to that. :smile:
Sanghamitta
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Sanghamitta »

My approach is always... what do those teachers I respect say, based on their knowledge of the Canon and their own experience ? My own knowledge and experience is much too limited to resolve these things for myself. There is a clear consensus among Theravadin teachers concerning this issue and related issues like Rebirth. Until such time as I have direct knowledge of these things for myself, I will trust that consensus. Which is that Rebirth is literally true, and that hell states exist as more than metaphores. If I didnt accept that I would find a tradition that reflected what I think rather than attempt to change this one. ( Theravada ).
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Lazy_eye »

Sanghamitta wrote:My approach is always... what do those teachers I respect say, based on their knowledge of the Canon and their own experience ? My own knowledge and experience is much too limited to resolve these things for myself. There is a clear consensus among Theravadin teachers concerning this issue and related issues like Rebirth. Until such time as I have direct knowledge of these things for myself, I will trust that consensus. Which is that Rebirth is literally true, and that hell states exist as more than metaphores. If I didnt accept that I would find a tradition that reflected what I think rather than attempt to change this one. ( Theravada ).
I'd have serious reservations about any "Buddhist" teacher who dismissed rebirth. That said, though, many who I respect and consider trustworthy acknowledge that they found it problematic, at least in the beginning. I just heard a talk by Joseph Goldstein, for instance, where he describes how his position evolved, having originated in skepticism. And, unless I'm confusing her with someone else, I recall Ajahn Sundara saying she used to not see the point of rebirth.

In fact, I can't remember anyone saying "heck, I got that right away! Piece o' cake!"
Cafael Dust
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Post by Cafael Dust »

Ok. In conventional terms, the sky was blue last time I went outside.

In truth, nothing can be said. There's no separate sky, no separate blue, no last time, no outside or inside.

In conventional terms, I may firmly know that I have led a past life and may exist in a firmly defined reality in which this makes complete sense. I may prove it in a test tube or with logic or by finding it's veracity affirmed in mile high letters on the moon.

In truth, nothing can be said.

there is no story

Her eye rests in the marble like a galaxy
her son is rolling. A hamster spins its cage.
She shakes pages free of her fingers; Caryatids
and Atlas, elephants on a tortoiseshell
and something like God holds whosoever
wants to be held. Today he is rippling silver
beside some seaside town, she whorls smoke
through the gap, shedding ash. There is no story,
but keep talking love,
keep misting windows and painting your breath
into the clear of glass.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
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