Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:15 am

Jechbi: I stand to be corrected, but doesn't the tradition maintain that the Buddha did not have recall of past lives until the very night of his enlightenment, just before he attained to full perfect enlightenment?


Not that I am aware of. Certainly he had mastered the jhanas before his awakening, which can give one the ability to recall past lives and the MN text quoted seems to indicate that rebirth was very much part of the reality he was working with.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby pink_trike » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:Now, now, now. Shame on you. I am not arguing that post-mortem rebirth is true. I am simply arguing that it is what the Buddha taught, what the texts state is so. Whether what the texts state is true is true is a whole other issue.

What I see with the rebirth deniers is a lot of pretzellating of what the texts state to get the texts to state what it is that think the texts should state.

While I have no problem with the "moment-to-moment" idea as being true (though not the whole story), I do have a problem with trying to make everything in the suttas conform to that, which really ends up ignoring and distorting what the texts plainly say. Again, I am not arguing that what the texts say is unquestionably true; what I an arguing is that rebirth is what the texts state, true or not.


Gotcha. Agreed (mostly). Oops on me... :toast:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:22 am

Oops on me...


Though I have stated that in the past, I really should restate it when I get involved in the rebirth deniers stuff as a matter of clarification, so some opps on me, as well.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:59 am

Peter wrote:"Compelled" is the only word that comes to mind.

How about “Hell-bent” ? :)

Wordweb: “Recklessly determined, hell-bent on winning.”
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:59 am

It is not possible, Retro. Rebirth deniers cannot simply ignore a thread about rebirth. They are compelled to argue about it. They cannot abide the idea that Buddhists teach something they dislike so much.

Strange... I do not like teachings on Buddha-nature, yet I do not scour internet forums looking for Buddha-nature threads to start debates in. I simply do not read those threads and instead read other threads. You would think someone who does not like teachings on rebirth would see a thread about being reborn into hell and decide that is not a thread for them. "Compelled" is the only word that comes to mind.


This is wrong on two accounts, first of all it goes with the assumption that there is a dislike or aversion from rebirth by the other person and secondly the posts i have made have nothing to do with denying rebirth since this a speculative view the same as rebirth affirmation is


Metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:42 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Peter wrote:"Compelled" is the only word that comes to mind.

How about “Hell-bent” ? :)

:lol:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby pink_trike » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:21 pm

clw_uk wrote:
It is not possible, Retro. Rebirth deniers cannot simply ignore a thread about rebirth. They are compelled to argue about it. They cannot abide the idea that Buddhists teach something they dislike so much.

Strange... I do not like teachings on Buddha-nature, yet I do not scour internet forums looking for Buddha-nature threads to start debates in. I simply do not read those threads and instead read other threads. You would think someone who does not like teachings on rebirth would see a thread about being reborn into hell and decide that is not a thread for them. "Compelled" is the only word that comes to mind.


...and secondly the posts i have made have nothing to do with denying rebirth since this a speculative view the same as rebirth affirmation is
Metta

Entrenched defenders of post-mortem rebirth rarely respond directly to these kinds of statements, or to the view from which they emerge, just as traditionalist Christianists very carefully (often mercurially) step around any questions/dialogue about the actual existence of their fantasy heaven/hell realms and tend to reject any direct discussion re: the re-birthing of hell/heaven in the moment. It's in the good book, that's good enough - dynamic interpretation and real-time application is a scary thing when the the only accepted options are literal, extreme hells or literal heavens...those are high stakes - one false step and you're a crispy critter in chains for eons. They aren't able to see that chasing after good heavens or running from bad hells is runaway speculation (as is the literal interpretation itself)...these places are very real to them (right now, in this moment) and they hang on tight to that leaky old raft. It really is no different from the Santa Claus parable - being good will result in toys, being bad will result in a lump of coal - another story meant to teach children a basic life lesson with the understanding that once they are an adult they will retain the lesson and understand the lesson's container as skillful means. It's more comfortable/safe for them to apply that same polarized, dualistic view to the discourse - literal post-mortem = right/non-speculative/good, re-birthing in the moment = wrong/speculative/bad. Literal = correct view, metaphoric = wrong view...a sharply parsed,black and white, comforting way to structure the structureless that is threatened by looking it spang in the eye and seeing it for what it is - just mind states in the moment no matter where or when the mind flows. The irony is that they are creating hellish hells and sugar-coated alluring heavenly mind-states right here, right now - and then tormenting themselves with them. That's their business, but for some reason they really need everyone to also literally believe in their private dualistic fantasies. :shrug: There is an expansive middle way in between the poles.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:24 pm

There is an expansive middle way in between the poles.


Indeed, the Buddhas Middle way beyond all speculative views
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:34 pm

At my cozy little site I started a thread called, "Can you trust your own eyes?" and I posted some optical illusions.
There was a reason I did that besides the entertainment factor.

:anjali:
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:39 pm

Chris wrote:Hello all,

How wonderful to think that this life is all there is! :woohoo: When things get too much, or life is too painful, or boring - just ... take pills, drive off a cliff, use a handgun, hang yourself, step out in front of a car ... and it's all over, the light goes out. What an easy solution. Except ... that's not what the Buddha taught.

Dhamma Without Rebirth?
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_06.html

metta
Chris


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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:35 pm

Craig: Indeed, the Buddhas Middle way beyond all speculative views

See me response in the great rebirth debate
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby notself » Tue May 05, 2009 4:03 am

I thought I would step in here and point out that although anyone can go to hell, "I" cannot. At death the khandhas that make up the illusion of "me" cease. The only thing reborn is the process of life itself.

My apologies, I have lost the source of the quote.

Bhikkhu Samahita  Sri Lanka

After death what moves to the next life? Is it consciousness?

No! since consciousness arise & cease right there, it cannot move anywhere!
It is not continuous, but contiguous discrete states as pearls on a string.
The prior moment of consciousness contains the properties that condition
the arising of the next moment of consciousness! These inherent properties are
mainly craving for (conscious) sensing and craving for new becoming into being.
If these cravings are present in the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness, then
the next moment of consciousness will arise immediately after the death moment,
but now in another location and body, which qualities (or lack of) indeed also are
conditioned by properties within the rebirth-linking moment of consciousness…

So what actually passes on is CAUSALITY: That is conditioning factors or forces!
Nothing more! No form, feeling, perception, construction, or consciousness passes on.
No Self, I, Me, Body, Identity, or Ego passes on, because they never really existed in
the first place, so how can they ever then pass on?!?


IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.

Just some thoughts.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby kc2dpt » Tue May 05, 2009 2:17 pm

notself wrote:IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.

So the Buddha wasted time?

Punna: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

Buddha: "Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."

(MN 57)
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby clw_uk » Tue May 05, 2009 2:19 pm

Those people already held a view of rebirth, he was teaching them in terms they would understand


Metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Jechbi » Tue May 05, 2009 2:26 pm

Hi Peter,

Peter wrote:
notself wrote:IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.

So the Buddha wasted time?

I agree with your underlying point, but in all fairness, this teaching in the Kukkuravatika Sutta that you quote does not appear to have been offered separately from the teachings of anatta. It also includes this:
"What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening.

Metta
:anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby kc2dpt » Tue May 05, 2009 5:05 pm

Jechbi wrote:this teaching that you quote does not appear to have been offered separately from the teachings of anatta. It also includes this:

I do not see any mention of anatta in the bit you quoted, nor in the rest of that sutta. Care to clarify?
- Peter

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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue May 05, 2009 7:38 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Any kind of wholesome kamma will change your mental state immediately. Practise generosity, reaffirm your determination to observe morality, practise meditation, pay homage to virtuous monks or to a Buddha image or pagoda, do something to help others, read a Dhamma book, discuss the Dhamma, etc.

Doing wholesome kamma is a practical way to get out of the hell of depression and enter the heaven of non-remorse. If you make wholesome kamma a lifelong habit you need not worry about falling into hell.


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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby notself » Tue May 05, 2009 11:54 pm

Peter wrote:
notself wrote:IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.

So the Buddha wasted time?

Punna: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

Buddha: "Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."

(MN 57)


Oh, come on now, you know I was referring to this thread and not to the Buddha. ;)

Are you suggesting that the self of the Dog-duty acetic is actually reborn?
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby kc2dpt » Wed May 06, 2009 12:55 am

notself wrote:
Peter wrote:
notself wrote:IMHO, it is a waste of time to discuss rebirth seperately from the teachings of anatta.
So the Buddha wasted time?

Oh, come on now, you know I was referring to this thread and not to the Buddha.

I know you were criticizing people for discussing a Buddhist teaching. I hope I have shown the criticism to be groundless.

Are you suggesting that the self of the Dog-duty acetic is actually reborn?

Why would you say that? Have I mentioned a self? Are you of the opinion that unless we append a discussion of anatta to every discussion of rebirth that we are promoting a self? If so, are you saying the Buddha promoted a self to Punna?
- Peter

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Re: Anyone can go to hell, so be heedful

Postby notself » Wed May 06, 2009 2:11 am

Peter wrote:Why would you say that? Have I mentioned a self? Are you of the opinion that unless we append a discussion of anatta to every discussion of rebirth that we are promoting a self? If so, are you saying the Buddha promoted a self to Punna?


I was not critisizing any one on this thread. I merely stated an opinion that rebirth and anatta are so closely linked that for us to discuss one without the other was not effective. It was my opinion as I stated up front. My apologies if I have upset you. It was not my intent.

In answer to your question on anatta, I do not feel that one promotes self if anatta is not discussed, however, I do think it is important when discussing rebirth to also discuss what is reborn. The Buddha often referred to rebirth without discussing anatta but we do not have the benefit of hearing the teaching from the Buddha himself in the context and company he gave it. We only have a remembrance of the teaching which by necessity was filtered through an oral tradition. We also have a responsibility to analyze any teaching for ourselves through our own understanding and to keep analyzing it until we reach full realization.

The following is my personal understanding of rebirth. As I come to grips with the concept of anatta, I realize that whatever illusion of self I possess, that self will end with my death. (As you may know, I have had good reason to contemplate my death.) I at first became distraught at the thought of my "self" ending. Then, I realized that somewhere down the road, some other self could have a chance of enlightenment and with that event all the previous selves, including me, would be remembered. I imagine that it will be much like me remembering a time in my childhood even though that child no longer exists.

With this understanding, I am filled with gratitude for all the selves that had been born before me and whose good actions have enabled me to have such a pleasant and easy life. I also find myself filled with regret, resolve and responsibility toward the self that would follow after me. I regret that I have not been more skillful and that some of my unskillful actions may bear fruit in the life of another. I feel resolve and responsibility to live in a more skillful manner in order to have the possibility that my skillful actions will also bear fruit and perhaps act as a dilution to the unskillful ones.

These thoughts made me read the Metta Sutta in a different light.

May all beings be at ease.
Whatever living beings there may be;
Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
Those born and to-be-born
May all beings be at ease!

The compassion and loving kindness I feel towards those to-be-born include those selves who will follow me.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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