what is the relevence of eating before noon?

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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:52 am

jason c wrote:hi manas,
i was not disagreeing with the cutting back of our food intake, developing a true sense of our individual bodies needs is an important step in cultivating a meditative practice, and i personally find it very benificial. i was trying to get to the heart of the importance of the strict monastic rules, in particular the no eating after noon and seeing if in todays society it would still be deemed necessary or if it is more or less followed as a tradition. i have little interest in buddhism, i do however have a great deal of interest in the teachings of the buddha. not for the monastics but for me as a layperson. i am trying to disect the teachings to their core and find the ultimate truth. i also would like to find out if it is possible to reach the ultimate truth as a layperson or if it becomes necessary to ordain at a certain level. i have personally began a process of trying to simplify my life, cutting the unneccessary out, i am however due to past karma, a husband , a father basically a family man and i have no desire to remove this aspect from my life. i find the challenges of practicing as a layperson to be seemingly limitless, but the buddha was a begger and he advocated this particular lifestyle and i would like to find out just why this is, and if it is necessary .
any arahants out there,
jason

You do not need to follow them as a lay person.
there is the five precepts if you think the eight are not relevant!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby manas » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:19 am

jason c wrote:hi manas,
i was not disagreeing with the cutting back of our food intake, developing a true sense of our individual bodies needs is an important step in cultivating a meditative practice, and i personally find it very benificial. i was trying to get to the heart of the importance of the strict monastic rules, in particular the no eating after noon and seeing if in todays society it would still be deemed necessary or if it is more or less followed as a tradition. i have little interest in buddhism, i do however have a great deal of interest in the teachings of the buddha. not for the monastics but for me as a layperson. i am trying to disect the teachings to their core and find the ultimate truth. i also would like to find out if it is possible to reach the ultimate truth as a layperson or if it becomes necessary to ordain at a certain level. i have personally began a process of trying to simplify my life, cutting the unneccessary out, i am however due to past karma, a husband , a father basically a family man and i have no desire to remove this aspect from my life. i find the challenges of practicing as a layperson to be seemingly limitless, but the buddha was a begger and he advocated this particular lifestyle and i would like to find out just why this is, and if it is necessary .
any arahants out there,
jason


Hi Jason,

As a Buddhist layperson, you can eat at any time of the day you like. I'm undertaking the extra restriction purely voluntarily. Sorry for any confusion I might have caused. Unfortunately I can't help with the origin of the monks' rule; I can only comment on some of it's benefits.

:anjali:
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby jason c » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:06 am

hey cittasanto,
i did not say the remaining precepts are not relevant, i simply wish to explore them more deeply, if you feel they are just simply rules for monastics to follow then this is your understanding and this is good for you. following my own practice i have found these precepts to be very deep and there is more there than we originally percieve. as in our own meditation when we begin our minds are undiciplined and dull as we practice properly we become more diciplined and our minds become sharper, allowing us to penetrate deeper and uncovering insights we previously did not know existed. remember cittasanto there are many silent people lurking on this website who are to shy to take part, and our communication although beneficial to our own personal practice may be their only window into these teachings. if you wish to explain your answers in more detail it would be appreciated by me and by other members i'm sure. if not this is good too.

hey mike,
when i began practicing it was a very selfish thing to do, leaving my wife with the kids to go on a meditation retreat, leaving on sunday morning for a couple hours to go meditate at the temple. cutting my wife's conversations short in the evening because i had to do my evening sit. very selfish indeed. but my practice has taught me that initially one needs to be selfish, they need to take the time to cultivate this practice, but the practice all the time is teaching one to become selfless, to take less, to think of themselves less, to learn to live with less, and understand that this less is enough, less to think about, less to worry about. and eventually one naturally wants to help others to experience this. so to me, these precepts have much depth, they are the ocean of our practice. and if this is missing the point kindly explain.
also if a monastic leads this selfish lifestyle of hiding away and meditating, becomes enlightened and does not have any inclination to help others than they can keep this enlightenment. i want no part of it. the buddha after becoming enlightened spent the rest of his waking moments helping others, this is true enlightenment.

thanks,
jason
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:44 pm

Hi Jason,
but you did say this
emphasis added to Jasons earlier post wrote:i was trying to get to the heart of the importance of the strict monastic rules, in particular the no eating after noon and seeing if in todays society it would still be deemed necessary or if it is more or less followed as a tradition.

this is by its very nature bringing the relevance of the mendicants precepts into question! and as such the 227 rules of a bhikkhu or 311(?) rules of a Bhikkhuni, are not relevant in regard to lay life as they are not lay precepts. their relevance is purely that of the mendicants, the origin stories and evolution (in some cases) of the rules are not informative to how a lay person need practice sila. That is, however, not saying the rules for mendicants can not inform the lay precepts, or that a rule can not be employed by a lay person, just that the rules & origins are not directly pertinent.
As an example, I am not a sports person, and have little interest in sports, but that doesn't mean that certain aspects of a sports persons routine can not be used, but the reason I would use these are not going to be exactly the same.
Take the rules on sex, these may inform the third precepts, but they are certainly not relevant to understand in there fine detain for a lay practice.
neither does the catagory of rule a Mendicants rule is in necessarily tell us anything about a lay persons rule, or its importance.

remember cittasanto there are many silent people lurking on this website who are to shy to take part, and our communication although beneficial to our own personal practice may be their only window into these teachings. if you wish to explain your answers in more detail it would be appreciated by me and by other members i'm sure. if not this is good too.

only what is posted can be responded to, or should I respond to every possible question and further question in one post?
but that is not relevant to the topic at hand.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby jason c » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:32 pm

dear cittasanto,
lets say your a scientist, and you want to find a cure for cancer. but in your experiments you find a cure for heart disease. do you simply throw away this cure, as it was not what you were looking for?
for me its the same with a topic of discussion, if it leads to other things and we feel like exploring these things then this is good, if we go to far off topic than we should create a new topic.
as far as the topic of this discussion goes; i thank everyone for their input, i feel it has helped shed some light on this subject, and i have been given some different opinions to contemplate.
thanks everyone ,
jason
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:49 pm

jason c wrote:dear cittasanto,
lets say your a scientist, and you want to find a cure for cancer. but in your experiments you find a cure for heart disease. do you simply throw away this cure, as it was not what you were looking for?
for me its the same with a topic of discussion, if it leads to other things and we feel like exploring these things then this is good, if we go to far off topic than we should create a new topic.
as far as the topic of this discussion goes; i thank everyone for their input, i feel it has helped shed some light on this subject, and i have been given some different opinions to contemplate.
thanks everyone ,
jason

Sorry jason, I fail to see how that question is relevant to what I said?
or how this has gone off topic.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby jason c » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:28 pm

cittasanto wrote,
only what is posted can be responded to,or should i.........?
i may have misinterpreted you. i thought you were saying we were going off topic.
i understand your views, and can see the benefit in following this noon eating rule.
i did ask some other questions.
what if a monk is lost while traveling from one forest monestary to another can he gather food and prepare food for himself?
what of the stories i read of nuns preparing and gathering wild roots and vegetables?
to understand that the body does not have to eat every day is valuable, to detach from food is valuable, this can be accomplished without this rule, these are selfish goals. to not be a bother to others and to arouse compassion in others are in my opinion noble acts and will lead to stream entry(through the gates of heaven) this is the goal. the buddhas teachings are meant to lead to this goal. the precepts are to cultivate right concentration (jhanic concentration) this is the concentration that will lead to stream entry and higher attainments. without proper morality you just have concentration and this alone will not take you to the final goal.
metta
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby hanzze_ » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:08 pm

jason c wrote:what if a monk is lost while traveling from one forest monestary to another can he gather food and prepare food for himself?
what of the stories i read of nuns preparing and gathering wild roots and vegetables?


Dear Jason,
you might find some answers here (especial nr.40): Buddhist Monastic Code I Chapter 8.4 Pācittiya: The Food Chapter

(through the gates of heaven)

That is not easy understandable. You mean one needs to leave the human existence to heaven first and attains there awakening (=as human we can only reach no-returner-fruit)?
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:37 pm

jason c wrote:i may have misinterpreted you. i thought you were saying we were going off topic.

you are quick to assume, and draw conclusions from little information.

i understand your views, and can see the benefit in following this noon eating rule.

do you?

i did ask some other questions.
what if a monk is lost while traveling from one forest monestary to another can he gather food and prepare food for himself?

There are allowances for traveling, but they still can not store or cook food although I do not remember the exact list it is liquid substances, and there are the seven day medicines which should be allowable.

what of the stories i read of nuns preparing and gathering wild roots and vegetables?

can you provide references?

to understand that the body does not have to eat every day is valuable, to detach from food is valuable, this can be accomplished without this rule, these are selfish goals. to not be a bother to others and to arouse compassion in others are in my opinion noble acts and will lead to stream entry(through the gates of heaven) this is the goal. the buddhas teachings are meant to lead to this goal. the precepts are to cultivate right concentration (jhanic concentration) this is the concentration that will lead to stream entry and higher attainments. without proper morality you just have concentration and this alone will not take you to the final goal.
metta
jason

what?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby alan » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:22 pm

Here's the answer to your question, jason:
As far as diet is concerned, you do not need to concern yourself with rules made for wandering monks 2500 years ago. They are no longer relevant.
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby jason c » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:52 pm

hey hanzze,
no it is not easily understandible, in fact it is impossible to understand, you must experience this state for yourself and in your own way. you are a combination of mind and matter(body) if you practice correctly you can learn to experience the body at the sub-atomic level (bhanga) the body will seem to dissapear and it will seem to evaporate into pure light. if the mind is pure enough, mind will seperate from body, (seperation of nama-rupa). at this point the sense of self,which is dependent on the body senses, evaporates and mind(pure awareness) is all that remains. there is no "I" to experience this realm of existance(which lies between samsara and nibbana) there is no-thing there but pure awareness. this i interpret as passing through the pearly gates(passing through the light of samsara into the dark no-thing ness of this realm) there is no time in this realm so the experience may appear to an onlooker as instantanious. when the experience is over the mind body connection is returned to normal, but the meditator has experienced death(this experience is what i call stream entry) the meditator is given fist hand knowledge of the non existent self. this knowledge changes their understanding of the teachings.
what lies beyond the pearly gates? heaven.
this is the truth as i have come to understand it, there is no doubt to me that this is the truth, you do not have to believe me, and if you disagree with me thats your choice, there is no need for me to argue with you, nor shall i.
it is my understanding that when the meditators knowledge of this experience has matured, he/she simply starts the process of meditation from the beginning working towards higher frutions.


hey cittasanto,

i can only draw conclusions from the information you provide.
i believe i understand your views, but this is impossible to really know.
you said there were ten reasons the rules could be layed down (i could not find these) and you have not provided them. so my question, i'll re-phrase it, should a lost monk simply die of starvation? still stands.
i read a book called, mae chee kaew, you will find all the stories in there.
can you elaborate on your confusions, i feel what i've written is comprehensible.

hey alan,
this is what i've been arguing to cittasanto . how is the practice of meditation benefitted from these ancient rules. my position is this rule is meant to arouse compassion in others. ie; laypersons supporting the monastics, they otherwise may not do charitable acts, it also gives the monastic an opporotunity to spread the dhamma.
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:46 pm

jason c wrote:hey cittasanto,

i can only draw conclusions from the information you provide.
i believe i understand your views, but this is impossible to really know.
you said there were ten reasons the rules could be layed down (i could not find these) and you have not provided them. so my question, i'll re-phrase it, should a lost monk simply die of starvation? still stands.
i read a book called, mae chee kaew, you will find all the stories in there.


here they are,
VinMv 1.5.11 Ten Reasons for setting down the Rules of a Mendicant- Translated from the pali by Cittasanto wrote:Meditators, as this (offence) is so, I will prepare rules of discipline for mendicants (following my) path, basing them on ten reasons!

1 – To protect the excellent (reputation) of well behaved) members;
2 – To protect the comfort (due to respect) of (well behaved) members;
3 – To silence those who are obstinate;
4 – For diligent meditators to have ease (in obtaining requisites);
5 – For meditators to restrain their effluents in the here & now;
6 – For restraining effluents (that condition) future births;
7 – For faith to arise in those who lack faith;
8 – For the conditions to increase the faith of those already with faith;
9 – For the true way (to be visible) for along time;
10 – For assisting the discipline of those in Training.

These are the motivations I shall prepare the mendicants rules of training for!

how long do you think you can last without food? I've fasted for a while during my time living under the Atthasila and was perfectly fine with walking, and could of travelled far enough to reach another town for alms round if nececcary on the last day, and I know of people who have fasted for weeks, the longest I have fasted is for two weeks so the possibility of dying from starvation is very unlikely. especially when you consider there are allowances which are conditional for their uses. but ask yourself what is stopping them asking, there are only four rules they need to keep to stay as mendicants.

the only way people would develop compassion for them is if they knew that is what they done but as they don't ask for things without an invitation to do so it is left up to the person to work it out themselves. and in Buddhist counties it is incredibly unlikely they would go a day without food unless it was deliberate, such as fasting.
at Luang Ta Maha-Bua's monastery it is quite a common occurrence for people to fast, and it has been used for health reasons and spiritual practice for milenia, pythagoras and his senior students would fast for up to 40 days before the "deeper teachings" and there are mention of similar lengths of fasting all over the world.

The rules for mendicants are for mindfulness, a lack of reproach so a direct development of hiri-ottapa & heedfulness for those who are following the mendicants form of training not for lay people. The Atthasila for lay people are for renunciation and are only practised one day a week or once/twice a month normally, although there are those who practice these as a form of training on a more permanent basis.

Mae Chee Kaew was not a bhikkhuni, she was a Mae Chee and followed the atthasila so didn't follow the full set of rules of the Bhikkhunis, the female mendicants who as I understand follow that particular rule also (although I would need to check). I do not know if Mae Chee's also follow other rules although the protocals & sikkha and some of the other rules from the vinaya are a possibility (it is reconed that there are about 10,000 rules in total).

hey alan,
this is what i've been arguing to cittasanto . how is the practice of meditation benefitted from these ancient rules. my position is this rule is meant to arouse compassion in others. ie; laypersons supporting the monastics, they otherwise may not do charitable acts, it also gives the monastic an opporotunity to spread the dhamma.

Like I said the rule for the Mendicants are not in your domain to need to be followed and you can follow the pancasila if you do not wish to follow the atthasila.

although you have previously stated
i did not say the remaining precepts are not relevant,

when I challanged you on questioning rules relevance that you are not expected to follow you denied it so are you arguing they are relevant or not?

Do note you are asking about the Mendicant rule, not the lay persons rule which is
Vikāla-bhojanā veramaṇī sikkhā-padaṃ samādiyāmi.
I take upon myself the precept for abstaining from Taking food after noon or during the night.

which has already been addressed here to some extent by members and has been addressed in other threads.

can you elaborate on your confusions, i feel what i've written is comprehensible.

your reply to hanzze will suffice.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby hanzze_ » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:45 am

jason c wrote:hey hanzze,
no it is not easily understandible, in fact it is impossible to understand, you must experience this state for yourself and in your own way. you are a combination of mind and matter(body) if you practice correctly you can learn to experience the body at the sub-atomic level (bhanga) the body will seem to dissapear and it will seem to evaporate into pure light. if the mind is pure enough, mind will seperate from body, (seperation of nama-rupa). at this point the sense of self,which is dependent on the body senses, evaporates and mind(pure awareness) is all that remains. there is no "I" to experience this realm of existance(which lies between samsara and nibbana) there is no-thing there but pure awareness. this i interpret as passing through the pearly gates(passing through the light of samsara into the dark no-thing ness of this realm) there is no time in this realm so the experience may appear to an onlooker as instantanious. when the experience is over the mind body connection is returned to normal, but the meditator has experienced death(this experience is what i call stream entry) the meditator is given fist hand knowledge of the non existent self. this knowledge changes their understanding of the teachings.
what lies beyond the pearly gates? heaven.
this is the truth as i have come to understand it, there is no doubt to me that this is the truth, you do not have to believe me, and if you disagree with me thats your choice, there is no need for me to argue with you, nor shall i.
it is my understanding that when the meditators knowledge of this experience has matured, he/she simply starts the process of meditation from the beginning working towards higher frutions.

Dear Jason,
sounds very strongly like the splint wood trap. Do not get caught up in it. There are plenty of confused heavenly beings and they all have perceptions. Maybe that is useful. Give it a time and do not pressure to much, you would easily burn out for nothing.
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby hanzze_ » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:50 am

alan wrote:Here's the answer to your question, jason:
As far as diet is concerned, you do not need to concern yourself with rules made for wandering monks 2500 years ago. They are no longer relevant.

When you still have doubt in Buddha Dhamma, yes. And it that way, they will never be relevant independent of the outside world and time. So maybe its better to say, not relevant yet, no longer relevant looks pretty aimless in regard of development.

It also could be, that your karmic situation is not the right yet and you even have some really responsibilities, excuses and snugness are not really responsibilities but could be in relation to your karmic possibilities, which you are able to change, step by step.
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:18 pm

hi cittasanto,
thanks for the detailed reply, i found this info very helpful. i have not studied the rules of mendicents in any great detail, so thanks for your tolerance. my concerns have only been focused on my own practice. i believe that as a layperson we can ex-spend much thought on issues concerning food, and the sooner we can come to peace with these issues, no thoughts on this matter will arise in our meditation, thus leading to better concentration, and deeper penetration of our meditation object.
in conclusion, if a layperson decides to follow this rule to enhance his practice go for it, if one is comfortable with their food intake on a day to day basis, and is not distracted by food in meditation then this precept is not necessary to follow to attain stream entry. also a mendicent simply following these rules without questioning their nature could be impeeding their progress on the path.

hey hanzze,

the heaven i am referring to is what i have come to understand as the christian heaven, very different from the buddhist heavenly realms. this misunderstanding is what i believe to be the cause of all the confusions amongst people of different religions(buddhists included). buddhist heavenly realms are within samsara there are 27 realms of existance that one could be reborn into, the fine material world(rupa-loka). there are four other realms, the immaterial world(arupa-loka). these four realms exist only as mind (this is the bardo of death, christian heaven)this is where an arahant or non-returner would go after death. the existance of this realm, but inability for all to experience it, is the cause of alot of the fighting between religions today.
but this is another topic.

metta ,
jason
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby hanzze_ » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:17 pm

jason c wrote:hey hanzze,

the heaven i am referring to is what i have come to understand as the christian heaven, very different from the buddhist heavenly realms. this misunderstanding is what i believe to be the cause of all the confusions amongst people of different religions(buddhists included). buddhist heavenly realms are within samsara there are 27 realms of existance that one could be reborn into, the fine material world(rupa-loka). there are four other realms, the immaterial world(arupa-loka). these four realms exist only as mind (this is the bardo of death, christian heaven)this is where an arahant or non-returner would go after death. the existance of this realm, but inability for all to experience it, is the cause of alot of the fighting between religions today.
but this is another topic.

metta ,
jason


Dear Jason,

maybe you like to check out the The Thirty-one Planes of Existence and yes, also the Christan ideas fits very well to this Planes of Existence (even there is some amount of creativity needed (Great Brahmas (Maha brahma) - One of this realm's most famous inhabitants is the Great Brahma, a deity whose delusion leads him to regard himself as the all-powerful, all-seeing creator of the universe).
Regarding the Arahant of a Buddha, he is not to be found (reborn) anywhere in this realms and that might be a little different to some believes of other school who teach about a nirvana-realm. Look at it, I guess it would clarify many things.
One more thing is, that one can reach Arahanthood even as a human and does not need to finish his last live in the highest realm.

This might be also useful:

from ariya-puggala - 'Noble Ones', 'noble persons'

(I) Through the path of Stream-winning (sotāpatti-magga) one 'becomes' free (whereas in realizing the fruition, one 'is' free) from the first 3 fetters (samyojana) which bind beings to existence in the sensuous sphere, to wit:
(1) personality-belief (sakkāya-ditthi; s. ditthi),
(2) skeptical doubt (vicikicchā),
(3) attachment to mere rules and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāsa; s. upādāna).

(II) Through the path of Once-return (sakadāgāmi-magga) one becomes nearly free from the 4th and 5th fetters, to wit:
(4) sensuous craving (kāma-cchanda = kāma-rāga; s. rāga),
(5) ill-will (vyāpāda = dosa, s. mūla).

(III) Through the path of Non-return (anāgāmi-magga) one becomes fully free from the above-mentioned 5 lower fetters.

(IV) Through the path of Holiness (arahatta-magga) one further becomes free from the 5 higher fetters, to wit:
(6) craving for fine material existence (rūpa-rāga),
(7) craving for immaterial existence. (arūpa-rāga),
(8) conceit (māna),
(9) restlessness (uddhacca),
(10) ignorance (avijjā).

The stereotype Sutta text runs as follows:

(I) "After the disappearance of the three fetters, the monk has won the stream (to Nibbāna) and is no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, is firmly established, destined for full enlightenment.
(II) "After the disappearance of the three fetters and reduction of greed, hatred and delusion, he will return only once more; and having once more returned to this world, he will put an end to suffering.
(III) "After the disappearance of the five fetters he appears in a higher world, and there he reaches Nibbāna without ever returning from that world (to the sensuous sphere).
(IV) "Through the extinction of all cankers (āsava-kkhaya) he reaches already in this very life the deliverance of mind, the deliverance through wisdom, which is free from cankers, and which he himself has understood and realized."

For the various classes of Stream-winners and Non-Returners, s. Sotāpanna, Anāgāmī.
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:10 pm

jason c wrote:hi cittasanto,
thanks for the detailed reply, i found this info very helpful. i have not studied the rules of mendicents in any great detail, so thanks for your tolerance. my concerns have only been focused on my own practice.

Well for a lay person the rules of a mendicant are never going to be fully relevant in the same way as they are for mendicants. some rules can be adopted, but this would not be to the extent they are written in full for a mendicant.


i believe that as a layperson we can ex-spend much thought on issues concerning food, and the sooner we can come to peace with these issues, no thoughts on this matter will arise in our meditation, thus leading to better concentration, and deeper penetration of our meditation object.

There are other hindrances and forms they take besides hunger for food.


in conclusion, if a layperson decides to follow this rule to enhance his practice go for it, if one is comfortable with their food intake on a day to day basis, and is not distracted by food in meditation then this precept is not necessary to follow to attain stream entry. also a mendicent simply following these rules without questioning their nature could be impeeding their progress on the path.

well this is why I have brought up the Atthasila, these are renunciant rules for lay people, and can be observed on all uposatha days or on specific ones, these are relevant for lay people, and how Mendicants study is and hold the rules is none of your concern or effecting your practice in any way.

there are six sets of "precepts" which a lay person can adopt, the pancasila five precepts, the atthasila the eight precepts in two different forms, and the kammapatha the ranges of action (not strictly precepts) and the eightfold paths sila section. the two forms of the atthasila ony have one difference, the third precept, one is celibate the other is not.
these for a lay person are relevant and applicable, however if you are looking for the applicability of the mendicants rules to lay life they will never be 100% relevant for different reasons and a certain amount of interpretation is needed to make them applicable, sometimes this is due to the origin of the rule, as is the case here, sometimes this is due to the range of the rule which a lay person can not keep to due to how life is, or may even seam irrelevant because the context has been lost or its social context is no longer present, like the one mentioned by Hanzze.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:46 pm

hey cittisanto,
so as we progress on the path ridding ourselves of defilements by the accumulation of wisdom, one generally leans towards living a certain way.

hey hanzze,
i think we should start a new topic.
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:54 pm

jason c wrote:hey cittisanto,
so as we progress on the path ridding ourselves of defilements by the accumulation of wisdom, one generally leans towards living a certain way.

Then Become a monk.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: what is the relevence of eating before noon?

Postby jason c » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:02 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
jason c wrote:hey cittisanto,
so as we progress on the path ridding ourselves of defilements by the accumulation of wisdom, one generally leans towards living a certain way.

Then Become a monk.

the circumstances must be right before one becomes a monk. previous karma fills ones life with responsibilities. one cannot be so selfish as to abandon these.
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