Arahants

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
lawphotog
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Re: Arahants

Post by lawphotog »

As far as i know, it is a serious sin to say someone who is not Arahant is Arahant and vasi vasa.
Is there any record of anyone who mahaparinirvana as Arahants in recent year?
Few years back, i have heard the news of a Mahayana monk in china who died as Arahant.
And I know few in my own country but i still want to find out more about other practices that lead to become Arahant.
chownah
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Re: Arahants

Post by chownah »

I don't think of it as a sin....I think of it as ignorance....thinking that someone is an arahant or not is just a view.....if you cling to the idea that someone is an arahant or not then you are just clinging to your own views....there is no way to know if someone is an arahant or not....and indeed it is only when one loses the status of "someone" that arahatahood arises I guess.....not sure though.....
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AyyaSobhana
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Re: Arahants

Post by AyyaSobhana »

A few months ago, Bhante Gunaratana advised us (bhikkhunis) to openly disclose our attainments to our colleagues in monastic life, whether meditation attainments or noble attainments. This was in connection with the last reflection of the Dasadhamma Sutta: "“Have I gained superhuman knowledge which can be specially known to noble ones, so that later when I am questioned by fellow bhikkhus I will not be embarrassed?” If Ven. Phalanyani hears about reputed arahants, she can go and question them about it.

There's no need for our practice to be veiled in mumbo-jumbo.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Arahants

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
AyyaSobhana wrote:There's no need for our practice to be veiled in mumbo-jumbo.
Well said, ayya!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Aloka
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Re: Arahants

Post by Aloka »

As a lay practitioner, I have little interest in who claims/is said to be an arahant.

Other peoples claims or attainments don't help me to be free from dukkha- but my own practice hopefully will.
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reflection
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Re: Arahants

Post by reflection »

According to Ajahn Brahms, only the Buddha can know someone else's attainments for sure. I also think it is very common for people to mistake their own attainments. For these two reasons, I think any claim -be it directly or indirectly- of any attainments should be taken with a grain of salt, always.

Besides, I personally don't think it is very important anyway. One should find a teacher that inspires and reflects the teachings of the Buddha and not worry about any attainments he or she may or may not have. Why? As an unattained person you can't even be sure if such states actually exist and therefore aren't in a good position to judge the attainments of others. And ones with attainments are self-reliant according to the suttas, so they don't need an attained teacher per se. :P In both cases, it's best to worry about your own progress, as Aloka also states.
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reflection
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Re: Arahants

Post by reflection »

AyyaSobhana wrote:A few months ago, Bhante Gunaratana advised us (bhikkhunis) to openly disclose our attainments to our colleagues in monastic life, whether meditation attainments or noble attainments. This was in connection with the last reflection of the Dasadhamma Sutta: "“Have I gained superhuman knowledge which can be specially known to noble ones, so that later when I am questioned by fellow bhikkhus I will not be embarrassed?” If Ven. Phalanyani hears about reputed arahants, she can go and question them about it.

There's no need for our practice to be veiled in mumbo-jumbo.
“Have I gained super-human knowledge which can be specially known
to noble ones, so that later when I am questioned by fellow bhikkhus I
will not be embarrassed?” should be reflected upon always by one who
has gone forth.

I understand the other reflections in the sutta, but I don't understand this part, can you (or someone else) explain? What exactly should the monk/nun reflect on?
"So that later.. I will not be embarrassed".. why should they be embarrasment?

Also, I don't see how this promotes openly disclosure.
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manas
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Re: Arahants

Post by manas »

Respectfully, I wonder if it is ok to ask that we don't use terms such as 'attainment' when talking about the paths and fruits. Unless the Buddha talked about it in this way, but I do not recall it. I find that the word 'attain' has connotations of acquisition in it, whereas I thought that we are about letting go of things here. I guess it's a personal preference on my part, so feel free to ignore this request! But does anyone else think that the term 'attainment' is misleading?

with metta
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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reflection
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Re: Arahants

Post by reflection »

manasikara wrote:Respectfully, I wonder if it is ok to ask that we don't use terms such as 'attainment' when talking about the paths and fruits. Unless the Buddha talked about it in this way, but I do not recall it. I find that the word 'attain' has connotations of acquisition in it, whereas I thought that we are about letting go of things here. I guess it's a personal preference on my part, so feel free to ignore this request! But does anyone else think that the term 'attainment' is misleading?

with metta
I can agree. I remember reading something by Ajahn Sumedho very similar to what you said. However, we are sort of stuck with this term in lack of a better description. Fruits or fruitions has exactly the same tone to it. If you know a better term, please share.
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AyyaSobhana
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Re: Arahants

Post by AyyaSobhana »

“Have I gained super-human knowledge which can be specially known
to noble ones, so that later when I am questioned by fellow bhikkhus I
will not be embarrassed?” should be reflected upon always by one who
has gone forth.

I understand the other reflections in the sutta, but I don't understand this part, can you (or someone else) explain? What exactly should the monk/nun reflect on?
"So that later.. I will not be embarrassed".. why should they be embarrasment?
Respectfully, I wonder if it is ok to ask that we don't use terms such as 'attainment' when talking about the paths and fruits. Unless the Buddha talked about it in this way, but I do not recall it.
My computer dictionary translates Attain as “succeed in achieving (something that one desires and has worked for), or “reach (a specified age, size or amount). I like the derivation from Latin attingere, from ad- (at, to) + tangere (to touch).

The most relevant pali word seems to be samaapanna (pp of samaapajjati) which is translated either as “attainment” or “entering on” a state … particularly entering any one of the four jhaanas, or the four formless attainments, or cessation of perception and feeling; or entering the path to Arahantship, and so on.

The passage in Dasadhamma sutta is about this kind of states. When a bhikkhu was approaching death, his colleagues would inquire what states he has **attained** **entered** or **reached** "Manku" is the Pali word translated as “embarrassed.” It also means “confused,” “stupified” or “stunned.” One wants to have enough clarity in practice to know what meditative states and what kind of insight one has reached.

I hope this is friendly and helpful :anjali:
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fig tree
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Re: Arahants

Post by fig tree »

reflection wrote: I understand the other reflections in the sutta, but I don't understand this part, can you (or someone else) explain? What exactly should the monk/nun reflect on?
"So that later.. I will not be embarrassed".. why should they be embarrasment?

Also, I don't see how this promotes openly disclosure.
Piyadassi Thera translates it like this:
"'Have I gained superhuman faculties? Have I gained that higher wisdom so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no occasion to be depressed and downcast?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.
It sounds like the idea is that as a monk one should aspire to these things so that on your deathbed you won't have to admit you never quite got around to it.

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reflection
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Re: Arahants

Post by reflection »

fig tree wrote:
reflection wrote: I understand the other reflections in the sutta, but I don't understand this part, can you (or someone else) explain? What exactly should the monk/nun reflect on?
"So that later.. I will not be embarrassed".. why should they be embarrasment?

Also, I don't see how this promotes openly disclosure.
Piyadassi Thera translates it like this:
"'Have I gained superhuman faculties? Have I gained that higher wisdom so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no occasion to be depressed and downcast?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.
It sounds like the idea is that as a monk one should aspire to these things so that on your deathbed you won't have to admit you never quite got around to it.

Fig Tree
Thank you, this is very understandable. But then I don't quite see how this promotes to announce ones attainments, but ok.
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reflection
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Re: Arahants

Post by reflection »

reflection wrote:
manasikara wrote:Respectfully, I wonder if it is ok to ask that we don't use terms such as 'attainment' when talking about the paths and fruits. Unless the Buddha talked about it in this way, but I do not recall it. I find that the word 'attain' has connotations of acquisition in it, whereas I thought that we are about letting go of things here. I guess it's a personal preference on my part, so feel free to ignore this request! But does anyone else think that the term 'attainment' is misleading?

with metta
I can agree. I remember reading something by Ajahn Sumedho very similar to what you said. However, we are sort of stuck with this term in lack of a better description. Fruits or fruitions has exactly the same tone to it. If you know a better term, please share.
After rethinking I think fruits is a better description.
vishuroshan
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Re: Arahants

Post by vishuroshan »

there are living arahats in this world. but recognizing an arahat is one of the most difficult things. if you have the luck & if u have the wisdom you can. i read a book called " LIVING BUDDHIST MASTERS" . in that book, ajahn chah tells that he got upset by seeing his master. he says "some people thought my master(Ajahn taung rat) is mad, he used to do strange things. he asked his students to eat slowly & mindfully, but he eats so fast & carelessly. finally i knw that he was conscious on mind & body until the last moment". sometimes you might not know even thers an arahat standing next to you. every arahat is not staying in jungles. most of the arahats are not bothered to teach what they realized. this is how they are. there's n arahat in sri lanka.
VEN. Vajira Buddhi Thero.

if you want i can send his dhamma discussion to you'all.
my e-mail - [email protected]
Last edited by vishuroshan on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
vishuroshan
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Re: Arahants

Post by vishuroshan »

you have to see the DHAMMA in the person. if you judge people from outside, u'll never be able to recognize an arahat.
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