the great vegetarian debate

Where members are free to take ideas from the Theravāda Canon out of the Theravāda framework. Here you can question rebirth, kamma (and other contentious issues) as well as examine Theravāda's connection to other paths
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yawares
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David's Book : Vegetarianism And The Middle Way

Postby yawares » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:44 pm

Dear Members,

David's Book : Vegetarianism And The Middle Way
[By Dr.David N. Snyder]


To accurately find out what the intention of the Buddha was we need to look at the basic
teachings that all Buddhist clergy and Buddhist schools can agree on. If we ignore the Buddhist
scripture references that seem to allow meat eating and also ignore the references which
specifically forbid it, we can analyze what the Buddha really taught by focusing on his core
teachings. The core teachings of the Buddha, accepted by all Buddhist schools, are found in the
Eightfold Middle Path. Consider the following points:

1. Right Action of the Eightfold Middle Path refers to ―no killing or causing to kill.

2. The first precept is to not kill or cause to kill. The precepts are based on the Eightfold
Middle Path, moral constituents.

3. When a person buys meat at a grocery store, the meat is definitely going to be replaced by
the grocer. The butcher will request another killed animal from the slaughterhouse.

4. Right Understanding of the Eightfold Middle Path includes an understanding of the Four
Noble Truths, which are based on cause and effect.

5. Right Livelihood of the Eightfold Middle Path does not permit an occupation of killing
animals or handling animal flesh, such as a butcher.

When you consider the above points, all drawn from the core teachings of the Buddha in the
Eightfold Middle Path, it is very difficult to imagine that the Buddha would have condoned the
eating of meat.


One of the arguments for meat eating is that the meat could be eaten if you do not do the killing
or if the animal is not killed specifically for you. If it is okay to eat meat, but not do the killing,
then why would the Buddha forbid a job that simply handles the flesh, such as a butcher? What if
everyone were Buddhist? Who would do the dirty work of killing so that others could eat the
meat without doing the killing? There is an obvious hypocrisy in the thinking that it is okay to
eat meat if someone else does the killing
.


Even if you accept the idea that it is okay to eat meat as long as you do not do the killing, that
still does not explain why the Buddha specifically forbade the handling of animal flesh, even if it
was killed by someone else. The Buddha also required the monks and nuns to carry a filter for
their water. He did not want the monks and nuns to even accidentally eat an insect. If the Buddha
was this concerned about the life of an insect, we can imagine the extent of the compassion
toward a cow or pig.


Even if you still believe that it is okay to eat meat if you are a monk or nun and it is offered to
you, then this still does grant the right to lay people who must make the decisions on which types
of food to purchase at the grocery stores. If you feel that lay people must be vegetarian and
monks and nuns must accept whatever is offered to them (as most Buddhists believe) then the
monastics become de facto vegetarians too, as they receive their foods from the vegetarian lay
people.


The Buddha‘s teachings are centered around cause and effect, including the Four Noble Truths
with its answers to our everyday suffering and in his teachings on kamma and re-birth and
dependent origination. The Buddha was like some kind of super scientist who deeply understood
cause and effect in every facet of existence. To say that he would not understand the cause and
effect relationship between meat eating and the killing of animals is unimaginable.


The very first Buddhist writings of any kind are not the Pali Canon, but the edicts of Ashoka.
The Pali Canon was not written until the first century B.C. The edicts of Ashoka written on rock
and granite were completed in the third century B.C. King Ashoka lived only 179 years after
Buddha and helped spread Buddhism in those ancient times. As one of the first Buddhists after
the life of the Buddha, his edicts and example provide a good clue as to the intent of Buddha on
this subject. Ashoka was a vegetarian and declared that animals should not be killed for food to
another and gradually phased out the killing of animals for food. One of the most famous edicts
is in the state of Gujarat, India and reads:
―Formerly, in the kitchen of Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadas [Ashoka], hundreds of
thousands of animals were killed every day to make curry. But now with the writing of this
Dhamma edict only three creatures, two peacocks and a deer are killed, and the deer not
always. And in time, not even these three creatures will be killed.
(Dhammika, Edicts of Ashoka)


The edict above was originally written in the ancient Brahmi script. It represents one of the first
(perhaps the first) writings about the Buddha-Dhamma.


Vegetarianism and the Middle Way

Q. How does vegetarianism fit with the middle way? Isn’t vegetarianism an “extreme”
view?

A. Middle way does not necessarily mean “a little of this and a little of that.” For example, we
know that abstaining from drugs and alcohol is a good precept to follow because if we abuse
drugs and alcohol, we can become addicts. We become prisoner to the next fix or dose. Under
the influence we can do all kinds of other bad things which we may not even be aware of. An
extreme or fanatical view of middle way would seem to suggest that Buddhists would be able to
take some drugs and alcohol, since it is a ―middle position between addiction and abstention.
But when you start the craving process, addiction can surely follow. How about a little bit of
poison? Who wants to ingest some poison that can kill almost instantly, such as rat poison? This
is why we need to let go of all views, including Buddhist ones. If we take an extreme view of
Buddhist middle way, we might think that ―a little of this and a little of that is okay, regardless
of the content.

If you feel that you can handle such things as alcohol in moderation and wish to do so you can
continue with that experiment and see if your judgment is not impaired, so long as no being is
harmed or killed. In regard to meat eating, even in moderation, we can not honestly say that no
living being will be killed (to replace the meat).

Middle way or moderation is for wholesome and nonviolent activities and not for obvious
actions which harms yourself or others. Perhaps a better way to describe the middle way is,
―everything in moderation, including moderation.

Vegetarianism can actually be a ―middle way position when you look at the Buddha‘s first
description and definition of the middle way. The Buddha first described the middle way as not
being the extreme of an ascetic where you deprive yourself and torture the body (such as some
yogis trying to reach enlightenment through self mortification) and the other extreme of self
indulgence.


Self mortification, as practiced by some yogis included long fasts. The Buddha broke the rule of
the ascetics when he ate and bathed. Vegetarianism does not require long fasts or even short
fasts. The one extreme is fasting and torturing your body and the other extreme is doing
whatever you want. Vegetarianism does not require malnutrition or sacrificing your body or your
health.


Self indulgence refers to chasing after pleasures of the senses without regard for consequences. It
is an attachment to the senses. If we know that meat eating is not needed for survival and we
choose to eat it because we are attached to the taste, that is a form of self indulgence.
If you consider the different levels of vegetarianism, the minimum amount to be called a
vegetarian of ―Lacto-Ovo (no meat, but will eat animal products, such as eggs and dairy) does
not look so extreme. For example, there are vegetarians who do not eat eggs (lacto-vegetarians),
vegetarians who do not eat dairy products (ovo-vegetarians), vegetarians who do not eat any
animal products (vegans), and some vegetarians who only eat macrobiotic, organic, raw vegan
foods. And then there are those who take even that a step further, like the Jain food diet where,
foods are eaten only from plants where the source plant did not die. For example, in this diet you
only eat greens that are trimmed from the top of the plant so that the plant is not killed.
In India there are millions of Jains who only eat greens from plants that are trimmed. They check
their seats before sitting down to make sure they are not sitting on any insects. The Jains also put
a cover on their mouths, thinking that it will prevent the death to microorganisms in the air. The
Buddha said that it is the intention that matters so that if we accidentally sit or walk on an insect,
it is okay. To be a vegetarian Buddhist, one only needs to eat at the lacto-ovo level or higher.
Seen in this way, with all the levels of vegetarian diets, the lacto-ovo vegetarian diet does not
look so extreme.


------to be continued----------
yawares :anjali:

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yawares
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:23 pm

Celebrities : Super Famous Vegetarians

Postby yawares » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:24 am

Dear Members,
I'm so surprised that many of my favorite entertainers are vegetarians!!
:jumping:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... t&y=Search

Celebrities: Famous Vegetarians Directory

Are you curious to know if your favorite movie star, famous celebrity, athlete or musician is a vegetarian? We've compiled this list from various sources (unverified & verified) to let everyone know that these famous people have chosen to be vegetarians.


•Abraham Lincoln, former President of the United States - info
•Adolf Hitler, infamous German Nazi dictator - info (IVU)
•Adriana Karembeu, model - info
•Albert Einstein, renowned scientist - info (IVU)
•Albert Schweitzer, theologian, philosopher, and physician - info (IVU)

•Alec Baldwin, actor and animal rights advocate -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... ec+baldwin

•Alicia Silverstone, actress, vegan -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Alyssa Milano, actress, vegan - info
•Amber Benson, actress - info
•Amanda Crew, actress, vegan - info

•Andy Lally, NASCAR driver, vegan -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... t&y=Search

•Angela Bassett, actress - info
•Angela Davis, actress, vegan - info
•Angelica Segerbäck, singer - info

•Angie Everhart, model and actress -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Anna Paquin, actress and Oscar winner of The Piano - info
•Anna Nicole Smith, actress, model - info
•Annalise Braakensiek, model - info
•Anne Hathaway, actress -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Ariana Huffington, writer and political activist - info
•Aristotle, Greek philosopher - info (IVU)

•Ashley Judd, actress -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Aubrey Chandler, actress - info
•Audrey Kitching, model - info
•Belinda Carlisle, singer of the Go-Go's -: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccQUAUXgk88
•Benjamin Franklin, author, politician, and scientist - info (IVU)
•Bernadette Peters, actress - info
•Betty White, actress - info

•Bill Clinton, former American President -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Billie Jean King, tennis player - info
•Billy Idol, musician - : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfRn7Mp5L0k
•Bob Barker, US TV show host - info
•Bob Dylan, singer, songwriter, and musician - info
•Bonnie Raitt, musician and singer - : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neuLfCVS0cU
•Boy George, singer - info

•Brad Pitt, actor -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Brigitte Bardot, French actress -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

[color=#FF00BF]•Brooke Shields, actress

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Bruce Springsteen, musician, singer and songwriter : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=129kuDCQtHs

•Bryan Adams, singer and songwriter, : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGoWtY_h4xo
•Candice Bergen, actress - info
•Carlos Santana, musician and guitar player - info
•Charles Darwin, renowned scientist - info (IVU)
•Carmen Garcia, model - info
•Carmen Miranda, Brazilian bombshell -

•Carrie Underwood, country singer, vegan -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Carrie Anne Moss, actress in Matrix trilogy, vegan - info
•Casey Affleck, actor, vegan - info
•Casey Kasem, US radio host, vegan - info
•Chelsea Clinton, daughter of Bill Clinton and Hilary Clinton - info

•Chris Evans, actor from Cellular and Fantastic Four
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... t&y=Search

•Chris Evert, American tennis legend - info
•Christian Bale, actor - info

•Christie Brinkley, model :
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... t&y=Search

•Christina Applegate, actress -

•Claudia Cardinale, Italian film star -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Claudia Schiffer, super model -

•Clint Eastwood, actor and film director-
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Clint Walker, actor - info
•Coretta Scott King, activist and wife of Martin Luther King Jr., vegan - info
•Cyndi Lauper, singer and songwriter : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A

•Daryl Hannah, actress and environmental activist, vegan - info
•Davy Jones, musician of the Monkees : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfuBREMXxts

•Demi Moore, actress : http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... demi+moore

•Dennis Weaver, TV actor - info
•Devin Townsend, Musician, guitarist, producer - info
•Diane Keaton, actress - info

•Doris Day, actress -
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... gac&sado=1

•Drew Barrymore, actress - info
•Dustin Hoffman, actor - info
•Dwight Yoakam, musician and country music singer - info
•Elijah Wood, actor - info
•Elizabeth Berkley, actress - info
•Ellen Degeneres, TV personality, vegan - info
•Emily Dickinson, writer and poet - info
•Emmylou Harris, singer - info
•Eric Roberts, actor, vegan - info
•Eric Stoltz, actor - info
•Faith Hill, musician, country singer - info
•Gandhi, Hindu spiritual leader - info (IVU)
•George Harrison, musician of the Beatles - info (IVU)
•George Bernard Shaw, writer - info (IVU)
•Gina Lee Nolin, actress - info
•Ginnifer Goodwin, actress - info
•Paul McCartney, the Beatles : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p41xLRmEPoY
•Gloria Swanson, actress - info
•Haley Mills, actress
•King Asoka
•Greg Cipes, actor and musician, vegan - info
•Greg German, actor - info
•Gregory Smith, Child Prodigy - info
•Gustave Flaubert, French novelist - info
•Gwyneth Paltrow, actress - info

*************
yawares :jumping:
Last edited by yawares on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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David N. Snyder
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Re: HappyCow's Super Famous Vegetarians

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:39 am

Similar to the list of celebrity Buddhists, some of these on the list are there on flimsy evidence, both the famous and infamous.

The Dalai Lama eats meat occasionally.

There is about an equal amount of evidence that Hitler was a vegetarian as there is for him not being a vegetarian (his chef reported that he loved to eat meat, for example and other reports indicate that he dabbled with healthy eating for longevity purposes).

Mike Tyson (former heavy weight champion in Boxing and Las Vegas resident) is definitely a vegan. (He chewed off part of on an opponent's ear, but didn't swallow.)

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yawares
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: HappyCow's Super Famous Vegetarians

Postby yawares » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:47 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Similar to the list of celebrity Buddhists, some of these on the list are there on flimsy evidence, both the famous and infamous.

The Dalai Lama eats meat occasionally.

There is about an equal amount of evidence that Hitler was a vegetarian as there is for him not being a vegetarian (his chef reported that he loved to eat meat, for example and other reports indicate that he dabbled with healthy eating for longevity purposes).

Mike Tyson (former heavy weight champion in Boxing and Las Vegas resident) is definitely a vegan. (He chewed off part of on an opponent's ear, but didn't swallow.)

Dear David,
Oh yes..that's what I think..Dalai Lama can't choose food..he's a monk.
Mike Tyson the TATTOO MAN is wierd/crazy.

I'm surprised that Billy Idol is a vegan : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfRn7Mp5L0k
and Chris Evans : http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... s+cellular
yawares..CELLULAR is a super good movie!!! Chris/Kim Basinger..perfect!! :thumbsup:

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yawares
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:23 pm

David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby yawares » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:27 pm

Dear Members,

David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A
[By Dr.David N. Snyder]


Q. What about other nutrients that the vegetarian diet does not provide?

A. The vegetarian diet provides all the nutrients a human needs. The only exception is the vegan
who does not eat any animal products could be missing vitamin B-12. This vitamin can be found
in miso (fermented soy paste) and shitake mushrooms. The lacto-ovo vegetarian has no problem
as animal products contain high amounts of B-12.

The cause of nearly all diseases, especially in developed countries, is not the lack of any
nutrients, but rather the excess of too much food and fat. We do not hear on the news of anyone
dying from lack of protein or lack of iron or lack of amino acids. The real problem is too much
food and fat. People in developed countries eat too much fat and protein. The excess iron and
protein leads to the health problems listed above.

An example is vitamin B-12, discussed above. We only need very miniscule amounts of this
vitamin and it is stored in the body. The amount of vitamin B-12 that we need is a very puny one
milligram for every 667 days (almost two years)! Yet, some meat eaters continue to argue that
vegetarians are not getting enough nutrients such as protein and vitamin B-12. If you watch the
news and live in a developed country such as the U.S., ask yourself how many times do you hear
of people dying of scurvy or protein deficiency and other nutrient deficiencies? It just does not
happen. The problem in developed countries‘ nutrition is excess protein and excess fat which has
made heart disease the number one killer in men and women.


Q. What about the violence vegetarians do to plants and the environment in the
construction of their homes and all the insects they kill in the production of their foods?

A. A couple of other arguments meat eaters like to throw back on vegetarians is that the
construction of homes and buildings, which vegetarians live in required the displacement of
animals and the killing of insects. Also, that the agriculture of plant foods causes the killing of
insects too. They also argue that the eating of the plants itself is a form of killing.
The displacement of animals is a far less form of violence to killing animals for food. The
development of homes and buildings does cause death to insects, but this is unavoidable as is
accidentally stepping on an ant walking down the street. The difference is the intent. The Buddha
said that there is no ―crime when there is no intent. A vegetarian builder does not intend to kill
insects just as the person walking down the street does not purposely step on the ant. The
consumption of meat, however, is a voluntary choice matter.

It is true that vegetarians do need to kill plants to eat their vegetarian diet, but the point is to
inflict the least amount of violence. Another important point is that there is a huge difference
between killing a plant and killing an animal. Vegetables and fruits are life forms, but they are
not animals, like humans, cows, and chickens. A vegetable does not have a face or a central
nervous system and does not scream in pain.

Many fruits and vegetables can be eaten without harming the plant, including legumes, berries,
nuts, seeds, pumpkins, melons, squash, okra, and others. Another very important point is that
most fruits and vegetables are eaten at the end of their natural life. In fact, fruit trees actually
produce their fruit so that they may survive and produce another tree. If the tree could talk, it
would beg us to eat its fruit. Seriously, when a human or animal eats a fruit, the food travels
down the intestinal tract, along with some seeds. Later, when the human or animal defecates, the
seeds end up back on the ground at a different location. The seeds then produce another tree. The
tree remains alive and by eating the fruit, we are assisting in the production of another tree.
Now when a person eats an animal, do you think the animal had the same wish to be killed and
eaten? Videos of slaughterhouse procedures have graphically shown how the animals feel about
being killed. They are prodded, often with electric shock devices into the slaughterhouse. Once
their throats are cut, they can be seen crying in pain and kicking with all their might to be free.
Gallons and gallons of blood pour out from the cuts. It is quite graphic and would probably need
an ―X rating for violence if it were shown in theatres.


Q. What about the plants and minerals? From a Buddhist perspective are we not reborn
sometimes in the plant and mineral worlds, so are we not killing and eating our kin when
we eat vegetarian foods too?

A. According to the Buddhist cosmology, rebirth occurs into the six realms of hells, purgatory,
hungry ghosts, animals, humans, and angelic higher beings (impermanent gods). There is no
rebirth into the plant kingdom. Plants do not have a developed central nervous system, a brain, or
a developed consciousness.


Q. Are Vegetarian Buddhists Animal Rights Activists?

A. If the ideal Buddhist diet is vegetarian, should Buddhists also be animal rights activists?
Being an animal rights activist is certainly a noble cause to undertake, if one so chooses, but it
has been my experience that only a very small percentage of Buddhists take the vegetarian
message that far. There is nothing wrong with being an animal rights activist for those who want
to, but the media does tend to portray the activists as extremists and sometimes as terrorists.
A Buddhist middle way position could be to take the view on the sanctity of all life and to
prevent the misuse, abuse, and killing of animals as much as possible.
Here are some of the positions animal rights activists have taken and a potential Buddhist middle
way answer:
Animal products – Nearly all animal rights activists are opposed to eating or promoting the
consumption of animal products, such as eggs, milk, and cheese. The activists note that many
farms that produce animal products keep the animals in confined quarters, such as ten or more
hens in one very small cage, producing eggs. The lights are kept on 24 hours a day so that they
will produce more eggs.

A Buddhist middle way position could be to eat animal products, if you so choose, if they came
from cage free, organic, more natural farms. Now there are farms where the animals are kept in
a more natural setting without hormone and anti-biotic injections and other bad conditions.
Animal experimentation – Nearly all animal rights activists are opposed to animal
experimentation of any kind, including dissection for educational purposes in schools.
A Buddhist middle way position could be to allow animal testing only if it is absolutely
necessary and if it can be definitely shown that doing such research would save human lives. It
is always terrible to kill any living being for any purpose, but in many cases animal research has
led to cures to some diseases which have actually saved thousands of lives or more. Humans are
members of the Animal Kingdom and we share virtually identical organs to many animal
species. This is why animal research has been so successful, including the vaccine for polio.
But we must still not forget the ethical arguments. The animals should be kept in humane
conditions and not be tortured under any circumstance. There is far too much animal
experimentation in the name of research and some of the repetition should be cut back, but the
number of animals killed in experiments still pales in comparison to the number killed for food.
The number killed in research laboratories is in the millions while the number killed for food is
in the billions to nearly trillions per year.

Fur and leather – All animal rights activists are opposed to the wearing of fur. The arguments
are very valid; that no one needs fur to keep warm (there are numerous alternatives), the animals
the fur comes from need to be trapped which can be quite painful, and it takes several fur
animals to make one coat. Many activists are also opposed to wearing leather because it is
usually from the skins of cows and bulls.

A Buddhist middle way position would be to agree with the activists one hundred percent on the
fur issue. In this day and age there is no need for furs and there is no consumption of the fur
animal‘s meat. The animals are being killed strictly for the furs. However, with the case of
leather, no animal is being killed to make leather as the leather is made from the skins of animals
killed for food. If we lived in a vegetarian world, animals would have to be killed to make
leather. But, since a vegetarian world is a long way off, there is no harm in using leather
products, if one so chooses.

In the Buddhist Vinaya (rules for monks and nuns) the Buddha makes it a rule that the monastics
cannot use antelope skins (Mahavagga 8.28) and also deer skins (Mahavagga 5.10), but then
makes an exception (Mahavagga 5.13) where it is the custom / culture and so long as no being
was killed specifically for the leather.


Q. Some have said that what matters is the state of your mind, not your diet. A vegetarian
could have an impure mind and a meat eater could potentially have a pure mind, which is
paramount in Buddhism, so what difference does diet make?

A. An argument that some meat eating Buddhist teachers make is that what really matters is the
state of your mind. They say that a mind that is pure while eating meat is better than a mind that
is impure, but vegetarian. This argument takes aim at the importance of mind purification in the
Buddha‘s teachings. But this argument fails for two big reasons. If we take the view that we can
do whatever we want as long as our mind is pure, then we could never convict sociopathic
killers. Sociopaths commit crimes such as rape and murder and feel no remorse. They have a
clear mind about their actions. They know they are violating societies laws and just do not care.
They are care-free and go about their daily routines with no remorse. The Buddha specifically
stated that a clear mind does not get you off the hook. One monk performed immoral acts and
stated that "I feel neither ease nor discomfort, thus there will be no offense for me." The Buddha
responded, "whether this foolish man felt or did not feel, there is an offense." (Vinaya,
Suttavibhanga 3.36)

This argument that meat eating is okay with a clear mind also fails, because it does not take into
account the spiritual and biological effect of the food we eat. When you eat meat you are eating
the craving, fear, and poisons which the animal feels or secretes as it is being slaughtered. Since
a meditator is trying to alleviate craving and suffering it is best to avoid such poisons which
harm others and yourself. The Buddha and modern medical doctors have demonstrated the interconnection
of the mind-body with the famous saying ―you are what you eat. Many people are
vegetarians for the ethical and nutritional reasons and / or the benefits to the environment. But in
vipassana we realize that there is an advantage for the purification of the mind too. Albert
Einstein was a vegetarian and realized this connection with his statement, “It is my view that the
vegetarian way of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most
beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”

The Buddhist commentaries on the suttas tell a story of two yogis who were very close to full
enlightenment. Then they ate some meat. This created an obstacle to the complete awakening,
which therefore, did not manifest. (Shabkar)

Since it is apparent that meat eating does effect the mind and continue the craving process and
the slaughterhouse process, it is important for Dhamma teachers to advise their students of the
risks to health and mind purification with the consumption of meat. Many teachers have avoided
this issue to stay away from controversy or to sell more books or get more followers. It would be
good if teachers would change as we have the evidence of the damage meat can do to health and
the mind. This does not need to be done in a forceful way, but in a way that recommends as a
helpful teacher leading by example, with compassion.

Many famous Buddhist leaders have adopted a vegetarian diet and have advocated a vegetarian
diet for their followers.

This includes:
Thich Nhat Hanh, founder of the socially engaged Buddhist ―Order of Interbeing.‖ He has
written at least one hundred books and has centers and monasteries around the world.
Ayya Khema, very famous German born nun who has written several Dhamma books and
opened many centers and monasteries in Europe and Sri Lanka. She was one of the first western
women to receive full ordination.

Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, author of the best selling book, Mindfulness in Plain English,
and founder and abbot of Bhavana Society in West Virginia is a vegetarian and the monks and
nuns at his retreat center are also vegetarian.

S. N. Goenka, perhaps the most famous lay Buddhist, who led a successful business and family
life along with the teaching of Dhamma. He has opened several Dhamma centers and is famous
for his ten day retreats using the body sensations, vipassana technique.

―Now I will tell you the rules of conduct for a householder, according to which, he becomes a
good disciple... Let him not destroy life nor cause others to destroy life and, also, not approve
of others‘ killing. Let him refrain from oppressing all living beings in the world, whether
strong or weak. Dhammika Sutta

Interestingly there is a Theravada monk by the name of Ven. Dhammika. He wrote the famous
Good Question, Good Answer. In the first edition, written nearly 25 years ago he came out very
strongly with the opinion that one does not need to be a vegetarian at all and vegetarian views are
basically wrong.

Since that time he has become a vegetarian and now he has come out with a fourth edition which
states:
―Many people find that as they develop in the Dhamma that they have a natural tendency to
move toward vegetarianism. (Good Question, Good Answer, 4th edition)

Thich Nhat Hanh has said,
"To practice nonviolence, first of all we have to practice it within ourselves. In each of us,
there is a certain amount of violence and a certain amount of nonviolence. Depending on our
state of being, our response to things will be more or less nonviolent. Even if we take pride in
being vegetarian, for example, we have to acknowledge that the water in which we boil our
vegetables contains many tiny microorganisms. We cannot be completely nonviolent, but by
being vegetarian, we are going in the direction of nonviolence. If we want to head north, we
can use the North Star to guide us, but it is impossible to arrive at the North Star. Our effort is
only to proceed in that direction."

In this wonderful quote from Thich Nhat Hanh, he admits that we cannot be completely
nonviolent, but by being vegetarian, we are in the right direction. The violence to microorganisms,
plants, and minerals, or even the displacement of animals for construction is in no
way comparable to the screaming and pain of the slaughterhouse to highly sentient beings.
I like his analogy to the North Star too. To me, this says that it is true that vegetarianism is not
the goal of practice, liberation is the goal; but it does provide a light and direction for reaching
that goal.

Can you be a Buddhist and still eat meat? Yes, of course, everyone is at different places on the
path. Can you reach full liberation without following the North Star (vegetarianism), well
according to the Buddha's teachings one cannot intentionally violate any of the five precepts
(first precept is to not kill, cause to kill, or incite another to kill) and be a stream entrant or
higher. A stream entrant is just the first stage of enlightenment (followed by once-returner, nonreturner,and fully liberated arahant). To be just the first stage of stream entrant one cannot
purposely violate any of the five precepts. Does buying meat encourage or cause someone else
to kill another living sentient being? That is for each of us to study and contemplate with our
practice of meditation and Sutta study and come to our conclusions.

------------to be continued----------- :thumbsup:
yawares

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Re: David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby yawares » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:56 pm

Dear David,

Once in Thailand, I/Tep went to pay respect to the famous Thera Poot (Luangta Bua's friend), many people were there, they asked many questions about animals being killed for food. Thera Poot said that these animals were born to pay back for their sins of taking bribes or stealing lots of money from people(like politicians/bank robbers etc.)..so they had to be reborn as animals to pay debt with their own meat etc...People who do researchs using animals will be reborn as animals for people to do researchs....'they reap what they sow' etc.
:anjali:

What do you think? :thinking:

I/Tep listened to the talking until after midnight...Thera Poot let us stay overnight in his guest-kuti.
yawares
:jumping: :reading:

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Re: David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:05 pm

yawares wrote:What do you think? :thinking:


Hi yawares,

I don't know, sounds like it could be speculation on another's kamma.

I believe it was Ajahn Chah who said "some people or animals may be deserving of receiving some bad kamma, but I don't want to be the one to administer the bad kamma."

:thumbsup: I like this quote (pretty sure it is Ajahn Chah).

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Re: Celebrities : Super Famous Vegetarians

Postby corrine » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:00 pm

Having been a healthy vegetarian for decades, I can see so many positives in the vegetarian lifestyle - health, environmental, financial etc. - and I cannot see any positives to eating other sentient beings. Just because some vegetarians are basically evil, does not reflect on the lifestyle. Remember, many vegetarians adhere to the lifestyle not out of compassion toward other living creatures, but because they will benefit in some way.

What is the downside? How can the killing and eating of our fellow creatures ever be a good thing?

I, personally, have benefited in so many ways from abstaining from eating meat, poultry, fish etc. I am grateful that I was able to observe a slaughter house when I was young and impressionable. It changed my life for the better.

corrine :smile:

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Re: Celebrities : Super Famous Vegetarians

Postby yawares » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:11 pm

corrine wrote:Having been a healthy vegetarian for decades, I can see so many positives in the vegetarian lifestyle - health, environmental, financial etc. - and I cannot see any positives to eating other sentient beings. Just because some vegetarians are basically evil, does not reflect on the lifestyle. Remember, many vegetarians adhere to the lifestyle not out of compassion toward other living creatures, but because they will benefit in some way.

What is the downside? How can the killing and eating of our fellow creatures ever be a good thing?

I, personally, have benefited in so many ways from abstaining from eating meat, poultry, fish etc. I am grateful that I was able to observe a slaughter house when I was young and impressionable. It changed my life for the better.

corrine :smile:

Dear "corrine",
I like your attitude...truly :thumbsup:
yawares

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Re: David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:28 am

It would be good to have a lots of plants and trees in the future :tongue: wouldn't it?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby yawares » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:38 pm

Hanzze wrote:It would be good to have a lots of plants and trees in the future :tongue: wouldn't it?

Dear Hanzze,
Please tell me all popular fruits that Cambodian people love...What are your favorites trees/fruits/flowers??
yawares

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Re: Was Buddha a vegetarian ?

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:46 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Diet of Buddha


97% vegetarian and about 72% vegan (I just counted the vegan references).

And based on the above, I think it is a win-win for both sides in the veg. debates. The vegetarians can say that the Buddha was 97% or almost completely vegetarian. And the omnivores can say that the fact that he ate some meat, any meat, shows that he did not ban it, nor is there the direct intention in regard to killing.


Can we say that Buddha was 100% Buddhist?....or must we give some credit to those Buddhist practices overlapping Brahmanism? As with the benefits of various moral practices, including "doing no harm", the dhamma is the dhamma no matter what the source or who or what deserves the credit for recognizing it. :hug: :group:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:43 pm

Those which are nead :tongue: If I tell you about good fruits, you maybe would like to have them and they would cut more forest, till the lands make it to places without the possibility for any rebrith to get some benefit from it.

What fruits are growing next to you in your neigborhood?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby yawares » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:25 am

Hanzze wrote:Those which are nead :tongue: If I tell you about good fruits, you maybe would like to have them and they would cut more forest, till the lands make it to places without the possibility for any rebrith to get some benefit from it.

What fruits are growing next to you in your neigborhood?

Dear Hanzze,
I'll post Thai fruits tomorrow...I think Thailand/Cambodia have same kind of exotic fruits :heart:
yawares

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Re: David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:43 am

Mind is the forerunner of all (good) conditions!

And its not a matter of which kind of pleasure one craves for, but that craving for pleasure is the cause of unpleasant results. For one self and for others.

Cambodians traditionally do not eat much fruits, just what the find next to them, seasonal food next to them. I guess it was not different some times ago in Thailand as well. Now we even can gain motorbikes and TV throught serving for the desire for pleasure of the world.

So good. They even start to eat more fruits, as they have more money jet and it does not depend on season and region any more. We live in a great world of compassion, arn't we. We even have zoo's and wildlife foundations now and animal founds.

From 70% forest to about 14% in only 30 years, but the export increases and we all are so wealth and even health now.

Does anybody know how old "buddist" the vegitarian boom is?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:37 pm

I think that I could have made Buddha into a vegan if I had introduced him to a Thai dish I have only found in Rochester, New York called : "Evil Prince in The Jungle". It is made with Thai egg plant, bean sprouts, rice noodles, chilly peppers, garlic, fresh basil, and minced onions. I don't believe onions and garlic were allowed, though. "Excellent Dish!" I don't really know why. :coffee:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: David's Book: Vegetarians/Bhuddists Q/A

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:59 pm

Hanzze wrote:Does anybody know how old "buddhist" the vegetarian boom is?


That is hard to say. Is there a boom? There does seem to be somewhat of an increased interest among convert Buddhists. There appears to have been some interest at least all the way back to Ashoka's time, which was very soon after the parinibbana of Buddha.

Ashoka's Edicts wrote:Those nanny goats, ewes and sows which are with young or giving milk to their young are protected, and so are young ones less than six months old. Cocks are not to be caponized, husks hiding living beings are not to be burnt and forests are not to be burnt either without reason or to kill creatures. One animal is not to be fed to another. On the three Caturmasis, the three days of Tisa and during the fourteenth and fifteenth of the Uposatha, fish are protected and not to be sold.

Formerly, in the kitchen of Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, hundreds of thousands of animals were killed every day to make curry. But now with the writing of this Dhamma edict only three creatures, two peacocks and a deer are killed, and the deer not always. And in time, not even these three creatures will be killed.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el386.html


Ron-The-Elder wrote:I think that I could have made Buddha into a vegan if I had introduced him to a Thai dish I have only found in Rochester, New York called : "Evil Prince in The Jungle". It is made with Thai egg plant, bean sprouts, rice noodles, chilly peppers, garlic, fresh basil, and minced onions. I don't believe onions and garlic were allowed, though. "Excellent Dish!" I don't really know why. :coffee:


I know you're joking since the Buddha followed the 3-fold rule, but "Evil Prince in the Jungle" ? :tongue:

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:39 am

This WIKI seems to cover most points including "What Buddha said". Unfortunately what he said to Theravadins, Mahayana, and Vajrayanins seems to differ. That may explain the variations in opinion regarding the topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_vegetarianism :anjali:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby GraemeR » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:53 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
So if as Buddhists we choose to buy meat we are expecting somebody else to engage in wrong livelihood.

Spiny


Hmmm If I pay a hired assassin (slaughterman) to kill my wife in an abattoir, do I avoid culpability for her death? :broke:

A clear conscience and all that insurance money :clap:

Graham

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:37 pm

GraemeR wrote:
Hmmm If I pay a hired assassin (slaughterman) to kill my wife in an abattoir, do I avoid culpability for her death? :broke:

A clear conscience and all that insurance money :clap:

Graham

the difference here is one is actively engaged in the process of the murder of the wife (in the example).
there is murderous intent.

but how many people go to the shops with the intent to kill an animal?
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
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"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."


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