is vipassana the main stream everywhere or just in the west?

[Cittasanto]

"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"

and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.

Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.

That is your projection. Pointless, but since when was a personal observation relevant?!

But I did ask you some questions!

[Mr Man]

"If you open a center
and have more than one lineage teaching there,
it will be the work of Mara"

and as I pointed out that is usual, and it is quite frankly not isolation, rather, a dedication to not confusing techniques.

Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.

what does this have to do with the main stream of vipassana??

PS I was responding to Cittasanto.

[mikenz66]

Hi Mr Man,

Thanks for the reminder of that interesting thread about Goenka, IMS, etc
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess I would differentiate particular teachers appearing to be isolationist from defining what their practice is. One can find isolationist tendencies in many places...

Ven Analayo comments on these tendencies in this talk at 46:30
The Basic Dynamics of Insight Meditation
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/208/talk/2749/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is something I don't understand, why not only advanced meditators, but even meditation teachers, think that what they do is the only right thing, and everybody else is wrong [laughs]. It seems to me like kindergarten: "What I got is better than yours, nyah, nyah!".

Furthermore, most teachers I am familiar with would require some consistency of practice if one wanted to do extended retreats. This is explicitly spelled out in the case of Goenka centres, since they have chosen to have a policy to assure consistency around the world. In other environments, where the local teacher is in sole charge, it would most likely be on a case-by-case basis.


Mike

[Mr Man]

Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.

That is your projection. Pointless

It is my opinion.

But I did ask you some questions!

I didn't think the conversation was going anywhere.

[Cittasanto]

Cittasanto, I think you just like to argue.

That is your projection. Pointless

It is my opinion.

point?
but do look up argument

But I did ask you some questions!

I didn't think the conversation was going anywhere.

only if you do not let it; and that is your choice.

[Mr Man]

Hi Mike

I guess I would differentiate particular teachers appearing to be isolationist from defining what their practice is. One can find isolationist tendencies in many places...

Yes. To me it is a matter of degree and what one is comfortable with but I think some kind of acknowledgement of what is going on is important (hope that makes some sense).

Ven Analayo comments on these tendencies in this talk at 46:30
The Basic Dynamics of Insight Meditation
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/208/talk/2749/This" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is something I don't understand, why not only advanced meditators, but even meditation teachers, think that what they do is the only right thing, and everybody else is wrong [laughs]. It seems to me like kindergarten: "What I got is better than yours, nyah, nyah!".

I will try and listen when I get a chance,

Furthermore, most teachers I am familiar with would require some consistency of practice if one wanted to do extended retreats.

Which is fair enough. As I said it is a matter of degree

[Mr Man]

but do look up argument

Are you serious?

only if you do not let it; and that is your choice

Your questions
1. I did not say they were synonymous I said "wrongly become synonymous".
2 & 3 were answered if you read my post.

[Cittasanto]

but do look up argument

Are you serious?

yes! you made a personal (potentially derogatory) opinion public, as you have presumed something I wish to either correct or affirm it.

only if you do not let it; and that is your choice

Your questions
1. I did not say they were synonymous I said "wrongly become synonymous".
2 & 3 were answered if you read my post.

The question was asking for proof of it being so.
and they were asking for clarification.

[Mr Man]

Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.

We could also have an umbrella term vipasana which could cover both.

I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299

Tilt, how did you find my clarification. It was partly for you.

[tiltbillings]

Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.

And that is not an opinion that is widely shared.

I personally would prefer to see vipasana return to it's literal home (see robertk's post).

It is not going to happen.

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299

And the response is: so?

[Mr Man]

Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.

So my perception of a/the "Vipasana Movement" in the US is accurate? It's interesting that you mention that the IMS founders still recommend Goenka. What would be more relevant would be if students of the Goenka school were recommended to do retreats at IMS or with other teachers. Or if they were encouraged to visit their local Buddhist temple, Join in communal activities. I believe one of the founders of IMS what at one time authorized to teach the U Ba Khin method.

There is also a technique which I think has wrongly become synonymous with vipasana which is the sweeping technique.

And that is not an opinion that is widely shared.

Your opinion here really does not have any greater validity than mine. I'm sure that many believe that when they are being taught the sweeping technique thay are being taught vipasana, you think otherwise.

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299

And the response is: so?

I had understood that you wanted me to back up my earlier comments.

[tiltbillings]

Okay, I have a perception of a "Vipasana Movement" in the US something along the lines of the Fronsdal article that danieLion linked to. In my mind this is connected/has it's roots at IMS Barre.

And most of the IMS founders did Goenka practice and still recommend it to those who are interested.

So my perception of a/the "Vipasana Movement" in the US is accurate? It's interesting that you mention that the IMS founders still recommend Goenka. What would be more relevant would be if students of the Goenka school were recommended to do retreats at IMS or with other teachers. Or if they were encouraged to visit their local Buddhist temple, Join in communal activities.

I do not know that they don't, and when one is not on retreat, the Goenka people have no say about what you do.

Your opinion here really does not have any greater validity than mine. I'm sure that many believe that when they are being taught the sweeping technique thay are being taught vipasana, you think otherwise.

So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice and that Goenka/U ba Khin's teachings do not fit into the general rubric of vipassana mediation.

An example of why I said "they act and teach pretty much in isolation." can be found here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p107299

And the response is: so?

I had understood that you wanted me to back up my earlier comments.

And the "isolation" has been explained. You seem rather obsessed with this isolation business.

[Mr Man]

I do not know that they don't, and when one is not on retreat, the Goenka people have no say about what you do.

In the end we make our own decisions but if you wish to be a Goenkaji student you are encouraged to make a commitment to following the ways of that group (not just on retreat). We could dismiss this saying it is not unusual for teachers to require commitment but in my opinion it is a question of degree.

So, as a matter of clarification, you are saying that the sweeping technique is not a vipassana practice

It is no more or no less a vipassana practice than any other activity

and that Goenka/U ba Khin's teachings do not fit into the general rubric of vipassana mediation.

I am not saying that.

And the "isolation" has been explained.

So you acknowledge the "isolation" now?

You seem rather obsessed with this isolation business.

Maybe.

[tiltbillings]

. . .

Quite frankly, this business is a waste of time.

[Cittasanto]

MrMan,
Can you demonstrate any difference between what you have said about Goenka and any other teacher? Or evidence to support your claims I asked for clarification on earlier?