Thai Theravadin monks and money

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Bankei wrote:Touching money is not such an issue in my opinion, it is the becoming attached to it and the businessisation of monks that concerns me.i
If they were not attached to it, they would not accept it.

This section on rules entailing Expiation with Forfeiture explains what should be done with money if it is accepted by a monk.

It is a major issue in my opinion. There are other more serious offences, such as sexual misconduct of various kinds, but if lay people didn't offer money to monks, most corrupt individuals would soon leave the Saṅgha, as there would be no advantage in remaining. We get free meals, and free accommodation so that we can meditate, study, and teach the Dhamma. We do not need to be paid for the work that we do as our basic needs are provided by lay supporters.
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A fool from HK
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by A fool from HK »

Dear Bhikkhu Pesala,

I am a HK people who use to be a christian,Mahayana Buddhlist and finally become a theravada buddhlist.

Concerning the money issues, may I have your comments on the following cases?

I joined a Mahashi meditation workshop in April this year (held in Macau) which leaded by a bhikkhuni (who served as the English translator for Sayadaw U Pandita before). At the end of the workshop, she accepted the money we given to her.
Also, please see the link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O22KY1PHdk, the sangha seems to accept money (12:00 of the video, the money is in the red pocket as Chinese tradition).
Did both cases violate the rules? or it is ok as long as no one actually own the money?

Thanks.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

A fool from HK wrote:I joined a Mahasi meditation workshop in April this year (held in Macau) which leaded by a bhikkhuni (who served as the English translator for Sayadaw U Pandita before). At the end of the workshop, she accepted the money we given to her.
Thank you for the action movie :)

If she was a bhikkhuni, then she violated the Vinaya rule. However, if she was a Burmese trained nun in pink robes (a thilashin) then she would, I believe, be following just the eight precepts, so for her to accept money is no offence.
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SarathW
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by SarathW »

Hi Friend from HK

When you become a monk you take 10 precepts.
The tenth precept is:
10.Refrain from accepting money.

As far as I know any monk who accept money break the Vinaya rules.
So it is important for the lay person to make sure that they take proper care of the monks.

See the following link for the difference between 8 and 10 precepts.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20550
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thepea
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by thepea »

How about laypeople giving a monk a credit card to use for monestary repairs?
A fool from HK
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by A fool from HK »

SarathW wrote:Hi Friend from HK


So it is important for the lay person to make sure that they take proper care of the monks.



http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20550
Oops.....I have given money to monks directly.
How about giving money "indirectly" for example, put it into the box in monestary (there is theravada monestary near my home having this practice). Or placing in front of the monks, but finally collected by a lay person representatives?
thepea wrote:How about laypeople giving a monk a credit card to use for monestary repairs?
I have similar question, I just donated money the monestary for buying the ownership of a house(the monestary consists of 3 houses, the second one is own by other people, so lay people is now trying to buy this house for the monestary) a few days before. That day I give the money to a monk. He "phyiscally'' touched the money. But I believe he will give the money to someone else.

Thanks.
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by culaavuso »

A fool from HK wrote: How about giving money "indirectly" for example, put it into the box in monestary (there is theravada monestary near my home having this practice). Or placing in front of the monks, but finally collected by a lay person representatives?
There is the Meṇḍaka Allowance, permitting the donation of money to a lay steward who will spend it for a bhikkhu's benefit at a later time.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

There are monks who say that it's allowable to use a credit card because the bank is acting as the monks' steward. I disagree, but it might be allowable if the monk uses the lay supporter's credit card (with their permission of course), as the money still belongs to the lay person. Then, the monk is just informing the retailer what he needs.

It's not something I would like to do — if any money goes missing from the lay person's account then one might be suspected of stealing. Best is to let a lay person pay all the bills from a Trust account managed by lay people, over which the monk has no direct control.

If the lay person has authorised the monk to order goods, then the monk can send the bills to the lay person.
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thepea
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

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While doing some flooring repairs to my local Vihara center, I ran out of a certain material. The previous materials I was using were purchased and delivered by a devotee who remained for a few days at my side to provide me with anything necessary. There was one day where he had personal business to tend to and I ran short of a few things. The abbot said he had a credit card at his disposal for emergencies, and he accompanied me to the hardware store and purchased the necessary items. I questioned him in regards to his handling what I considered money, he said he was the only monk who had access to this card, and that without this system the Vihara center could simply not function.

All in all it was a pleasant no-nonsense experience, it did not feel to me that he had done wrong in any way. He seems a very disciplined man from my encounters with him.

From my understanding the cards bill is paid monthly by a lay devotee, I suppose this is just a necessary part of running a meditation centre in this day and age in a non-Buddhist location.
A fool from HK
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by A fool from HK »

Would there be any chances for the Theravada Sanghas from different locations of the world to organize a conference for discussion of this controversial issue?
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cooran
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by cooran »

I very much doubt it. I, personally, would not support a Bhikkhu who handled, or personally accepted money. Most monasteries have a Lay Committee with a treasurer who accepts financial donations, orders goods and work to be done, and who buys necessities and pays the bills. Lay people bring the food Dana offerings daily.

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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by appicchato »

Would there be any chances for the Theravada Sanghas from different locations of the world to organize a conference for discussion of this controversial issue?
Slim to none...generally speaking everyone (to use a radio analogy) operates on different (and vastly spread out) frequencies...AM/FM/satellite/shortwave/CB/ham/etc....you name it (countries, cultures, races, sects, city/rural...right down to human nature, temperament, disposition, etc....what works in one locale just doesn't/won't fly in another...good on those where it does...

If asked, packing a credit card does not get a pass...
Last edited by appicchato on Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

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A fool from HK wrote:Would there be any chances for the Theravada Sanghas from different locations of the world to organize a conference for discussion of this controversial issue?
The monk that I disagreed with over this issue was a senior and learned monk, who was well disciplined and mindful.

The Buddhist Councils held over the centuries have been convened to collated and edit the texts, but interpretations of those texts will always vary, and there will be different views. There is no need for lay people to lose sleep over it. If you agree with me that monks should have nothing to do with money, then don't offer money to monks. Support them with alms food, or in other ways — which are clearly allowable — you will make merit by so doing and help them to preserve and propagate the Buddha's teaching.

It is a long time since the Buddha's passing away, so there are bound to be differences of opinion regarding what is allowable and what is not. The important thing is to develop generosity, morality, concentration, and wisdom.

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A fool from HK
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by A fool from HK »

Thanks. I will support them with food and try to do the Meṇḍaka Allowance when money is involved.
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Re: Thai Theravadin monks and money

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:There are monks who say that it's allowable to use a credit card because the bank is acting as the monks' steward. I disagree, but it might be allowable if the monk uses the lay supporter's credit card (with their permission of course), as the money still belongs to the lay person. Then, the monk is just informing the retailer what he needs.

It's not something I would like to do — if any money goes missing from the lay person's account then one might be suspected of stealing. Best is to let a lay person pay all the bills from a Trust account managed by lay people, over which the monk has no direct control.

If the lay person has authorised the monk to order goods, then the monk can send the bills to the lay person.

I agree

If Buddha was aware of credit cards then I feel confident that he would have prohibited their use by the monks and nuns. It seems the intent was to remove the monks and nuns from the transaction process, from business.
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