Western cultural adaptations

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Western cultural baggage

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:24 pm

I can't make much sense of the OP. The word "baggage" implies carrying something unecessary, whereas several of the examples in the OP are about getting rid of baggage or simplifying it. Also I'm not sure any of them could be considered "cultural".

Here's my thoughts on western cultural baggage;

1. The tendency to view Buddhadhamma as a system of belief, like western religion, rather than a system of practice as in eastern religion. This is why westerners can get uptight about dogma whereas asians tend to be pretty relaxed about it.

2. The tendency to want to understand Buddhadhamma intellectually (and connect and contrast with other systems) before embarking on practice rather than proceeding intuitively and letting understanding ufold. This is as per like the western education system, while in asia rote learning is much more common, in contrast with both I think in Buddhadhamma learning should be an ongoing and inuitive process.

3. The tendency to see practice as a psychotherapy, so it can often become all about me and my personal story and getting tied up in knots about that rather than about patiently observing impersonal phenomena and letting go of it all.

Oh, and there are some things that are more common in western Buddhists than they are in western society as a whole, I don't think these are "cultural baggage" but has more to do with the type of people attracted to Buddhism in the west.

1.People who are new age, or "spiritual", first, and Buddhist second.

2. People who have green or left wing political ideals first, and are Buddhist second.

3. People who are vegitarian first and Buddhist second.
Last edited by Goofaholix on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Western cultural baggage

Postby Anagarika » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:25 pm

daverupa wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote:... Canon Dhamma ... I feel that there needs to be a real effort to communicate this Dhamma prescription in its purest form possible.


The Canon in toto is already a 'game of telephone' spanning about five hundred years or more; even slimming this down to the Nikayas leaves a century and a half. And, in this respect, the oral tradition is not well-characterized as a game of telephone. The Nikayas are the first step of cultural adaptation, frozen-ish ca. the Second Council.

And you know, we can see the Abhidhamma as the second step of cultural adaptation taken with the Nikayas; our own is some Nth iteration of cultural adaptation of that very core material.

I feel as though we have better access to and understanding of this material now than many earlier iterations, in fact...


Dave, good points made, but there does seem to be a consensus that the Pali Canon is a fairly decent aggregation of the Buddha's teachings. I do place trust in the idea that this Canon is, rather than early links in a chain of 'telephone', an reasonably accurate rendition of the core BuddhaDhamma. I have no reason to question, for example, Ven. Thanissaro's faith in the general accuracy of the Canon as Dhamma, and suggest that he does not see the Canon as the first links in the 'telephone' chain. In any case, my thought is that whether we see the Canon as being pristine, or not, we take the Canon as a starting point, and in my view, we find in the west that Buddhism has, in many cases, veered well off course.
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Re: Western cultural baggage

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:42 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:there does seem to be a consensus that the Pali Canon is a fairly decent aggregation of the Buddha's teachings.


The Theravada Canon is one among many; a series of historical accidents brings it to us in its current form. Agreement across the Nikaya/Agama boundary is encouraging, and similarity in the early scholastic Abhidhammas is very encouraging news since they generally agreed on what to cite, but this means that for all intents and purposes the Second Council is a terminal point for what can be considered possible Buddhavacana by modern historical standards.

Within this body of material, there are certain additions and editorial efforts which have massaged the recited material into the Nikayic format; this process was still somewhat ongoing, accounting for some of the differences between Nikaya/Agama arrangements, etc.

So, approaching all this in terms of School or Canon or Textual Strata is going to be strongly descriptive in terms of which culturally adaptive matrix we're each using to approach the Dhamma, I suppose.

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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby Anagarika » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:47 pm

daverupa wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote:there does seem to be a consensus that the Pali Canon is a fairly decent aggregation of the Buddha's teachings.


The Theravada Canon is one among many; a series of historical accidents brings it to us in its current form. Agreement across the Nikaya/Agama boundary is encouraging, and similarity in the early scholastic Abhidhammas is very encouraging news since they generally agreed on what to cite, but this means that for all intents and purposes the Second Council is a terminal point for what can be considered possible Buddhavacana by modern historical standards.

Within this body of material, there are certain additions and editorial efforts which have massaged the recited material into the Nikayic format; this process was still somewhat ongoing, accounting for some of the differences between Nikaya/Agama arrangements, etc.

So, approaching all this in terms of School or Canon or Textual Strata is going to be strongly descriptive in terms of which culturally adaptive matrix we're each using to approach the Dhamma, I suppose.

:group:


Dave, I'm kind of tossing Abhidhamma to the curb, and focusing, as you pointed out, to the alignment of the Nikayas and the Agamas and strongly suggestive of a core cohesive Dhamma text. Yes, there is even a cultural adaptation with respect to Abhidhamma as part of the Canon, and I suppose my bias is with focusing on the Suttas and the Vinaya as the benchmark Dhamma.
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Re: Western cultural baggage

Postby Kare » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:18 am

daverupa wrote:
The Theravada Canon is one among many; a series of historical accidents brings it to us in its current form. Agreement across the Nikaya/Agama boundary is encouraging, and similarity in the early scholastic Abhidhammas is very encouraging news since they generally agreed on what to cite, but this means that for all intents and purposes the Second Council is a terminal point for what can be considered possible Buddhavacana by modern historical standards.

Within this body of material, there are certain additions and editorial efforts which have massaged the recited material into the Nikayic format; this process was still somewhat ongoing, accounting for some of the differences between Nikaya/Agama arrangements, etc.



Yes, finding the core Dhamma is no simple task, since there can be seen layers even in the canonical texts. They seem to be the results of a process, and at the same time they form a horizon that we struggle to see past. Efforts have been made trying to sort earlier and later in the canon(s). But it all seems to come down to what criteria you choose for sorting - linguistic or others.

Still, there is a lot of agreement between the Nikayas and Agamas, as you say. There is even some agreement across the Mahayana border. One list of dhamma factors that seem to be common to all the early schools (according to Warder), is the list of 37 bodhipakkhiyadhammas, which can be found in for instance MN 77. Perhaps we won't go far wrong if we take that one as our point of departure.

The 37 bodhipakkhiyadhammas may be situated at a place very close to the start of the 'telephone line'. I liked that telephone simile. If I may play a little more with that simile, we need to cut down on superfluous relay stations that complicate or even garble the message, and establish a line as direct as possible back to the starting point. But we still have to acknowledge that we are part of that line, since we are at the receiving end of it. And we should not just sit there passively, but take an active part in the conversation and have a dialogue with the text, as the philosopher Gadamer recommends. Only then can the text take an active part in our lives. And the telephone company has fairly reasonable fees for using this line. All they demand, is that we practice diligently ... :)
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Re: Western cultural baggage

Postby Ben » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:22 am

Kare wrote: All they demand, is that we practice diligently ... :)

Yes, but practice what?
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby binocular » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:10 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Additional ones?

Equating political correctness (esp. American style political correctness) with Right View and Right Speech.
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby gavesako » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:27 am

A nice paragraph by Ven. Cintita:

A Western American Wanders into a Chinese Temple

How did it happen that Western Buddhists so quickly gained a monopoly on real Buddhism? We in the
West certainly don't seem to have gained much of a handle on Christianity over many centuries, and the
average citizen of my country is pretty clueless about science, history, and almost everything else
outside of popular entertainment. Yet we meditate and study Buddhist philosophy, while people in
Asian temples burn money and appease spirits through elaborate rituals. How were we the ones to
arrive at this precise understanding of something as sophisticated and refined as Buddhist thought and
practice?
A culturally European American walked into a culturally Asian Chinese temple. He had been reading
books on Buddhism, primarily by Asian adepts, had been favorably impressed and wished to develop
his personal experience in the matter. After entering, he was taken aback by the peculiarity and
anomaly in the practices and beliefs of the laity he encountered, by the formal style and insistence on
liturgy, by the presence of unfamiliar dramatic figures in temple statuary, by unfamiliar rites at temple
altars, by chanting the name of some guy he had never heard of and by hocus pocus all around. The
devout temple laity witnessed yet another dismayed European American run out the door and into the
street yelling something about an “egregious corruption of the Dharma.” What gives?
It is not much different when a culturally Chinese walks into a culturally European Buddhist center and
immediately encounters a laity intent on discovering their true selves, casual and disrespectful of
demeanor, sitting in a circle expressing themselves openly and freely, with no visible clergy or leader
present, before what seems to be an altar but on which a rock stands where the Buddha should be. He
sees that the devotees are engaged in some kind of modern dance practice involving an exchange of
papier-mâché masks constructed the previous week in which everyone is instructed to wear and the act
“spontaneously.” These casual free spirits are about to witness yet another polite Asian American
excuse himself respectfully and depart never to be seen again. What gives?

http://bhikkhucintita.files.wordpress.c ... osity2.pdf


:shock:
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Re: Western cultural baggage

Postby binocular » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:53 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Good posts from you, Kare, and the rest. Lots of things to consider.

And the results of this consideration are ...?

- - -

Kare wrote:The Buddha taught the Dhamma in order to help people. So how can the teachings be of help for you and for me?

Maybe that's not the right question. It seems like a characteristically Western question.


But it is no simple task. It may be difficult to decide if a certain point of practice or doctrine belongs to the core Dhamma or if it is the result of some Asian adaption. Therefore it is good to discuss what is the core, what is Asian adaptions, and what kind of adaptions we should make. Some of the adaptions we already have done may be good, others less so. But the principle stands. Western people have exactly the same right to adapt the Dhamma to their own lives as people in Asian cultures have been doing for thousand(s) of years. We need to study the Dhamma carefully to try to find the real core. And we should learn from the different adaptions made in the living traditions. Then we may be able to see how the core Dhamma can be fit into our own culture so that it becomes a living and transforming force in our lives. We can, and should, discuss and criticize this or that specific adaption. But this criticism should not turn into a criticism of the idea of process itself of making adaptions. "Pure and unadapted Buddhism" is a fiction that belongs in a museum.

The question is whether an adaptation can still deliver the originally promised result, namely, the complete cessation of suffering.

An adaptation certainly can help people in ways they wish to be helped, in ways they think they should be helped. But whether such help then results in the complete cessation of suffering is another matter.
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Re: Western cultural baggage

Postby Kare » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:39 am

Ben wrote:
Kare wrote: All they demand, is that we practice diligently ... :)

Yes, but practice what?


Good question. One suggestion: If we take the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhammas as our point of departure, it would make sense to base our practice on one of these 37 points. Satipatthana, the eightfold path, etc. ... I suppose we should be able to find something to practice.
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Re: Western cultural baggage

Postby Kare » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:51 am

binocular wrote:
Kare wrote:The Buddha taught the Dhamma in order to help people. So how can the teachings be of help for you and for me?

Maybe that's not the right question. It seems like a characteristically Western question.


Western = wrong
Eastern = right

Is this how your dictionary looks?

Instead of staring blindly at the Eastern/Western dichotomy, take a closer look at what the Buddha did and said. He lived his life as a teacher, motivated by compassion. He wanted his teachings to be of help. So how can asking how the teachings can be of help, be the "wrong question"?

But it is no simple task. It may be difficult to decide if a certain point of practice or doctrine belongs to the core Dhamma or if it is the result of some Asian adaption. Therefore it is good to discuss what is the core, what is Asian adaptions, and what kind of adaptions we should make. Some of the adaptions we already have done may be good, others less so. But the principle stands. Western people have exactly the same right to adapt the Dhamma to their own lives as people in Asian cultures have been doing for thousand(s) of years. We need to study the Dhamma carefully to try to find the real core. And we should learn from the different adaptions made in the living traditions. Then we may be able to see how the core Dhamma can be fit into our own culture so that it becomes a living and transforming force in our lives. We can, and should, discuss and criticize this or that specific adaption. But this criticism should not turn into a criticism of the idea of process itself of making adaptions. "Pure and unadapted Buddhism" is a fiction that belongs in a museum.

The question is whether an adaptation can still deliver the originally promised result, namely, the complete cessation of suffering.

An adaptation certainly can help people in ways they wish to be helped, in ways they think they should be helped. But whether such help then results in the complete cessation of suffering is another matter.


You are missing the point. A close study of the history of Buddhism reveals that all the living traditions are adaptions. There is no unadapted Buddhism to be found. Therefore the question is not 'adaption or no adaption?'. It is: Do you want to step into an illfitting adaption made for others, or do you want an adaption that is tailored for your own size?
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby Ben » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:59 am

Hi Kare,
Thanks for your response. What I was attempting was to explore what practice is or what it looks like given that Buddhism has been utterly transformed by its contact with the west and western ideas since the 19th century. Even the nikayas and ancient commentarial literature are interpreted and framed through the cultural and psychological milieu of the translator.
Something else to consider, and it is something that I have mentioned elsewhere, is that what we define as practice, in this time and (virtual) space is very different to what was practiced in traditional Buddhist cultures prior to European colonisation.
For me, personally, these are important discussions, important questions.
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby seeker242 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:53 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Thoughts? Additional ones? Disagree? :guns:


Aversion to any kind of concept of faith. Mostly coming from people who have bad experiences with other faith based religions growing up, etc. This could rightly be called "baggage" IMO as faith, the Buddhist kind, is quite beneficial!
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby Kare » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:55 am

Ben wrote:Hi Kare,
Thanks for your response. What I was attempting was to explore what practice is or what it looks like given that Buddhism has been utterly transformed by its contact with the west and western ideas since the 19th century. Even the nikayas and ancient commentarial literature are interpreted and framed through the cultural and psychological milieu of the translator.
Something else to consider, and it is something that I have mentioned elsewhere, is that what we define as practice, in this time and (virtual) space is very different to what was practiced in traditional Buddhist cultures prior to European colonisation.
For me, personally, these are important discussions, important questions.
With metta,
Ben.


I agree. These are important discussions, important questions. Would you like to suggest some answers, or some way for finding the answers?
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby Ben » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:04 pm

Hi Kare,
I don't feel qualified to offer any answers or ways to arrive at answers.
For me, it's a matter of continuing with my own practice, as I have been practicing, continue in my study and reflexive self examination.
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby Mr Man » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:11 pm

Ben wrote:Thanks for your response. What I was attempting was to explore what practice is or what it looks like given that Buddhism has been utterly transformed by its contact with the west and western ideas since the 19th century.
Hi Ben, Does this apply to the Thai forest tradition and also some of the other Thai folk/esoteric traditions + the non Theravada traditions? Perhaps it is relevant that although Thailand was certainly influenced by European ideas, it was never colonized. possibly the same goes for Tibet.
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby Anagarika » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:17 pm

Kare wrote:
Ben wrote:Hi Kare,
Thanks for your response. What I was attempting was to explore what practice is or what it looks like given that Buddhism has been utterly transformed by its contact with the west and western ideas since the 19th century. Even the nikayas and ancient commentarial literature are interpreted and framed through the cultural and psychological milieu of the translator.
Something else to consider, and it is something that I have mentioned elsewhere, is that what we define as practice, in this time and (virtual) space is very different to what was practiced in traditional Buddhist cultures prior to European colonisation.
For me, personally, these are important discussions, important questions.
With metta,
Ben.


I agree. These are important discussions, important questions. Would you like to suggest some answers, or some way for finding the answers?


I feel fortunate that we have the Bhante Gavesakos, the Ven. Thanissaros, the Bhikkhu Bodhis, and many others that offer this instruction as to what the culture, the experience, and practice should look like. We have scholars like Dr. Gombrich and others that can investigate through a relatively unbiased lens what ancient and orthodox practice looked like, and sounded like. I'm not smart or skilled enough to undertake these investigations, so I depend on the quality and compassion of these teachers showing the rest of us the way. As Ven. Thanissaro suggests, we take these teachings and then apply them to our own lives. He notes that like Michael Jordan, we study and practice, we dedicate, and improvise where necessary to apply these practices to our own experience to determine what works best. One example of this might be meditation/jhana, and how with solid instruction, we then incorporate these teachings into our own experience, and mold them into a practice that brings about release from the fetters. We can then compare the scholarship, the investigations, and the results of practice to what is being offered in the western marketplace, and determine for ourselves what is authentic and useful, and what might be an adaptation or cultural fetter that leads to an aberration.
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby Ben » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:21 pm

Hi Mr Man,
As I understand it, the Thai Forest Tradition is the result of a revivalist movement that began in the first half of the 20th Century but echoes prior revivalist movements.
All forms of Buddhismł appear to have been altered as a result of its contact with the west.
If I get a little more time tomorrow, I'll attempt to provide a bit more detail.
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Ben
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby Coyote » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:42 pm

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but I have heard Ven. Thanissaro talk about how westerners struggle with guilt much more than asians. Something to do with guilt vs. shame cultures.
More about guilt vs shame here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tions.html
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Re: Western cultural adaptations

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:37 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:
I feel fortunate that we have the Bhante Gavesakos, the Ven. Thanissaros, the Bhikkhu Bodhis, and many others that offer this instruction as to what the culture, the experience, and practice should look like. We have scholars like Dr. Gombrich and others that can investigate through a relatively unbiased lens what ancient and orthodox practice looked like, and sounded like. I'm not smart or skilled enough to undertake these investigations, so I depend on the quality and compassion of these teachers showing the rest of us the way.
And Venerables Anayalo and Nanananda and Joseph Goldstein among others who clearly fit this bill: As Ven. Thanissaro suggests, we take these teachings and then apply them to our own lives. He notes that like Michael Jordan, we study and practice, we dedicate, and improvise where necessary to apply these practices to our own experience to determine what works best. One example of this might be meditation/jhana, and how with solid instruction, we then incorporate these teachings into our own experience, and mold them into a practice that brings about release from the fetters. We can then compare the scholarship, the investigations, and the results of practice to what is being offered in the western marketplace, and determine for ourselves what is authentic and useful, and what might be an adaptation or cultural fetter that leads to an aberration.

For all our efforts to get to the heart of the Buddha's Dhamma, we are going to adapt it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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