Buddhawajana.

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jan fessel
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel »

I belive Buddhawajana find the problem of using "holy water" in the text below.

"giving ritual rinsings and bathings"

1.27. '"Whereas some ascetics and Brahmins, feeding on the
food of the faithful, make their living by such base arts, such
wrong means of livelihood as appeasing the devas and redeeming
vows to them, making earth-house spells, causing
virility or impotence, preparing and consecrating buildingsites,
giving ritual rinsings and bathings, making sacrifices,
giving emetics, purges, expectorants and phlegmagogues,
giving ear-, eye-, nose-medicine, ointments and counter-ointments,
eye-surgery, surgery, pediatry, using balms to counter
the side-effects of previous remedies, the ascetic Gotama refrains
from such base arts and wrong means of livelihood."43
It is, monks, for such elementary, inferior matters of moral
practice that the worldling would praise the Tathagata. DN1.27

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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, it's possible that some may be "sprinkling" it in a way that would come under the definitions of that sutta. In my personal experience, that's not been the case, it's been more in line with Ajahn Sumedho's discussion of ritual.

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jan fessel
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel »

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, it's possible that some may be "sprinkling" it in a way that would come under the definitions of that sutta. In my personal experience, that's not been the case, it's been more in line with Ajahn Sumedho's discussion of ritual.

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Mike
I agree.

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gavesako
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by gavesako »

Ajahn Chah, although he generally discouraged all kinds of rituals and did not hand out amulets or winning lottery numbers, did sometimes do the water sprinkling on appropriate occasions as a blessing for the lay people. But in Thailand huge ceremonies are often organized with the entire hall being covered with white string tied up and touching every person's head, and then the "holy water" is made with a lot of chanting and ritual and so on. That is what Ajahn Chah would refrain from doing.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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jan fessel
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel »

gavesako wrote:Ajahn Chah, although he generally discouraged all kinds of rituals and did not hand out amulets or winning lottery numbers, did sometimes do the water sprinkling on appropriate occasions as a blessing for the lay people. But in Thailand huge ceremonies are often organized with the entire hall being covered with white string tied up and touching every person's head, and then the "holy water" is made with a lot of chanting and ritual and so on. That is what Ajahn Chah would refrain from doing.
Interesting. Thank you very much ven.bhikkhu Gavesako.

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jan fessel
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel »

I can not understand much Thai, but I get told that the text below from the Thai Tipitaka, is why Buddhawajana say that sprinkling water as a blessing by monks is wrong.

Any comment on this ?

"พระไตรปิฎก ภาษาไทย (ฉบับหลวง) เล่มที่ ๙
พระสุตตันตปิฎก เล่มที่ ๑ ทีฆนิกาย สีลขันธวรรค
หน้าที่ ๖๖/๓๘๓ ข้อที่ ๑๑๘-๑๒๐
[๑๒๐] ๗. ภิกษุเว้นขาดจากการเลี้ยงชีพ โดยทางผิดด้วยติรัจฉานวิชา เช่นอย่างที่
สมณพราหมณ์ผู้เจริญบางจำพวกฉันโภชนะที่เขาให้ด้วยศรัทธาแล้ว ยังเลี้ยงชีพโดยทางผิดด้วย
ติรัจฉานวิชา เห็นปานนี้ คือ ทำพิธีบนบาน ทำพิธีแก้บน ร่ายมนต์ขับผี สอนมนต์ป้องกัน
บ้านเรือน ทำกะเทยให้กลับเป็นชาย ทำชายให้กลายเป็นกะเทย ทำพิธีปลูกเรือน ทำพิธี
บวงสรวงพื้นที่ พ่นน้ำมนต์ รดน้ำมนต์ ทำพิธีบูชาไฟ ปรุงยาสำรอก ปรุงยาถ่าย ปรุงยา
ถ่ายโทษเบื้องบน ปรุงยาถ่ายโทษเบื้องล่าง ปรุงยาแก้ปวดศีรษะ หุงน้ำมันหยอดหู ปรุงยาตา
ปรุงยานัตถุ์ ปรุงยาทากัด ปรุงยาทาสมาน ป้ายยาตา ทำการผ่าตัด รักษาเด็ก ใส่ยา ชะแผล
แม้ข้อนี้ก็เป็นศีลของเธอประการหนึ่ง.


พระไตรปิฎก ภาษาไทย (ฉบับหลวง) เล่มที่ ๙
พระสุตตันตปิฎก เล่มที่ ๑ ทีฆนิกาย สีลขันธวรรค
หน้าที่ ๑๐/๓๘๓ ข้อที่ ๒๓-๒๕
[๒๕] ๗. พระสมณโคดม เว้นขาดจากการเลี้ยงชีพโดยทางผิดด้วยติรัจฉานวิชา เช่น
อย่างที่สมณพราหมณ์ผู้เจริญบางจำพวกฉันโภชนะที่เขาให้ด้วยศรัทธาแล้ว ยังเลี้ยงชีพโดยทางผิด
ด้วยติรัจฉานวิชาเห็นปานนี้ คือ ทำพิธีบนบาน ทำพิธีแก้บน ร่ายมนต์ขับผี สอนมนต์ป้องกัน
บ้านเรือน ทำกะเทยให้กลับเป็นชาย ทำชายให้กลายเป็นกะเทย ทำพิธีปลูกเรือน ทำพิธี
บวงสรวงพื้นที่ พ่นน้ำมนต์ รดน้ำมนต์ ทำพิธีบูชาไฟ ปรุงยาสำรอก ปรุงยาถ่าย ปรุงยาถ่ายโทษ
เบื้องบน ปรุงยาถ่ายโทษเบื้องล่าง ปรุงยาแก้ปวดศีรษะ หุงน้ำมันหยอดหู ปรุงยาตา ปรุงยานัดถุ์
ปรุงยาทากัด ปรุงยาทาสมาน ป้ายยาตา ทำการผ่าตัดรักษาเด็ก ใส่ยา ชะแผล
ดูกรภิกษุทั้งหลาย ข้อที่ปุถุชนกล่าวชมตถาคต จะพึงกล่าวด้วยประการใด ซึ่งมีประมาณ
น้อย ยังต่ำนัก เป็นเพียงศีลนั้นเท่านี้แล."

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gavesako
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by gavesako »

This is the paragraph from the Brahmajala Sutta:


3. The Long Section on Virtue (Mahāsīla)
21. "Or he might say: 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by such debased arts as:[4] prophesying long life, prosperity etc., or the reverse, from the marks on a person's limbs, hands, feet etc; divining by means of omens and signs; making auguries on the basis of thunderbolts and celestial portents; interpreting ominous dreams; telling fortunes from marks on the body; making auguries from the marks on cloth gnawed by mice; offering fire oblations; offering oblations from a ladle; offering oblations of husks, rice powder, rice grains, ghee, and oil to the gods; offering oblations from the mouth; offering blood-sacrifices to the gods; making predictions based on the fingertips; determining whether the site for a proposed house or garden is propitious or not; making predictions for officers of state; the knowledge of charms to lay demons in a cemetery; the knowledge of charms to cure one possessed by ghosts; the knowledge of charms to be pronounced by one living in an earthen house; the snake craft (for curing snake bites and charming snakes); the poison craft (for neutralizing or making poison); the scorpion craft and rat craft (for curing scorpion stings and rat bites, respectively); the bird craft and crow craft (for understanding the cries of birds and crows); foretelling the number of years that a man has to live; the knowledge of charms to give protection from arrows; reciting charms to understand the language of animals — the recluse Gotama abstains from such wrong means of livelihood, from such debased arts.'

26. "Or he might say: 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by such debased arts as: arranging auspicious dates for marriages, both those in which the bride is brought in (from another family) and those in which she is sent out (to another family); arranging auspicious dates for betrothals and divorces; arranging auspicious dates for the accumulation or expenditure of money; reciting charms to make people lucky or unlucky; rejuvenating the fetuses of abortive women; reciting spells to bind a man's tongue, to paralyze his jaws, to make him lose control over his hands, to make him lose control over his jaw, or to bring on deafness; obtaining oracular answers to questions by means of a mirror, a girl, or a god; worshipping the sun; worshipping Mahābrahmā; bringing forth flames from the mouth; invoking the goddess of luck — the recluse Gotama abstains from such wrong means of livelihood, from such debased arts.'

27. "Or he might say: 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, earn their living by a wrong means of livelihood, by such debased arts as: promising gifts to deities in return for favors; fulfilling such promises; demonology; reciting spells after entering an earthen house; inducing virility and impotence; preparing and consecrating sites for a house; giving ceremonial mouthwashes and ceremonial bathing; offering sacrificial fires; administering emetics, purgatives, expectorants and phlegmagogues; administering medicine through the ear and through the nose; administering ointments and counter-ointments; practising fine surgery on the eyes and ears; practising general surgery on the body; practising as a children's doctor; the application of medicinal roots; the binding on of medicinal herbs — the recluse Gotama abstains from such wrong means of livelihood, from such debased arts.'

"These, bhikkhus, are those trifling and insignificant matters, those minor details of mere moral virtue, that a worldling would refer to when speaking in praise of the Tathāgata.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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jan fessel
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel »

Thank you very much ven.bhikkhu Gavesako.

Does the Brahmajala Sutta,s list of not to do - in your opinion, fit on a monk who with a pure intention of metta, and not to make mony - are sprinkling a little water as a blessing onto laypeople ?

And is the Thai translation saying the same as the english ?

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gavesako
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by gavesako »

The Thai translation will necessarily reflect their common practices and rituals so it might seem like what they do now in Thailand was the same as they did in India 2500 years ago. But that may not always be so. Sure, many of the rituals in Thailand derive from brahmanism and animism. But it is the way they are used which matters. Apparently Ajahn Chah would sometimes simply sprinkle a group of villagers with water "just to make them happy" because he could see that this was the level they were at, they would not understand any higher levels of Dhamma. But at least it lifted their minds to a wholesome state.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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jan fessel
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel »

This is a GOOGLE translation of the Thai.

In that I find this : "sacrifice throws holy water sprinkle"

I do not see the same in the english translation.

So please tell me - which translation is correct ?


"The Holy Scriptures in Thailand (Royal Edition) Volume 9.
The color of Suttantpiฎk Volume 1 Tiฆnikai Khan paragraph.
No. 66/383 Page 118-120
[120] 7 priests except lack of funds. By way of example, at the wrong animal.
Brahmin clergy were the nutrients that they gave me some kind of faith. Also living with the guilt.
Animal subjects seen thus far is a ceremony to celebrate the votive vow enchant cast. Teach defensive magic
Houses for bisexual men to return. Do bisexual men to become Greenhouse planting ceremony ceremony
Areas, sacrifice throws holy water sprinkle holy fire ritual shooting meth meth meth regurgitation.
Picture taken from above Meth taken from beneath Cook the cure headaches Meth cooking oil ear buds.
Snuff cook cook cook nail biting nail heals eye surgery drug label drugs to treat children erosion lesions.
Although this is one of her precepts.


Buddhist scriptures in Thailand (Royal Edition) Volume 9.
The color of Suttantpiฎk Volume 1 Tiฆnikai Khan paragraph.
Page 10/383 23-25 ​​Article
[25] 7 monk Gautama left by the lack of a living animal with such subjects.
The Brahmin clergy were the nutrients that they gave me some kind of faith. The Fund by the
With animal subjects seen thus far is a ceremony to celebrate the votive vow enchant cast. Teach defensive magic
Houses for bisexual men to return. Do bisexual men to become Greenhouse planting ceremony ceremony
Areas, sacrifice throws holy water sprinkle holy fire ritual regurgitation meth meth meth taken penalty shot.
Above meth taken from beneath. Cook the cure headaches Cooking oil, eye drops, ear meth meth Tus appointment.
The cutting topical healing potions ingredients label drug drugs eye-surgery treatment of children erosion lesions.
Eq The praise of mortals powerful communication tool Should be said with any that are around.
Less is low, the only canon that much then. ".

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gavesako
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by gavesako »

In these contexts the translation largely depends on the explanation in the commentary and on the present translator's background. It is hard to know what exactly those rituals involved in ancient India.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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jan fessel
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel »

gavesako wrote:In these contexts the translation largely depends on the explanation in the commentary and on the present translator's background. It is hard to know what exactly those rituals involved in ancient India.
Thank you very much ven. bhikkhu Gavesako.

But if thats the case that translations is so unsure, it seems to me that Ajahn Kukrit just as well could be right about the 150 :tongue:

Are there any hard evidence for Ajahn Chah sometimes did sprinkle laypeople ?

Its not that I not belive you, cos I do - but its more that people have been telling me it is not true.


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gavesako
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by gavesako »

If one knows about the difficulties of Pali translation then it would be obvious that some passages are more tricky than others to translate accurately. There are some words which only occur once in the Tipitaka, so it is hard to tell what exactly they mean. This is where we have to rely on the commentary, which might not always be reliable anyway. But other contexts are much clearer and the same terms occur in many similar contexts.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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jan fessel
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel »

gavesako wrote:If one knows about the difficulties of Pali translation then it would be obvious that some passages are more tricky than others to translate accurately. There are some words which only occur once in the Tipitaka, so it is hard to tell what exactly they mean. This is where we have to rely on the commentary, which might not always be reliable anyway. But other contexts are much clearer and the same terms occur in many similar contexts.
Sadhu, Bhante. :anjali:
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gavesako
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Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by gavesako »

One of the senior Western monks told me he saw it himself when Ajahn Chah was doing some simple water sprinkling, and all his Thai disciples do it as well.

Here is a story told by Ajahn Brahm:

"An army general came to visit Ajahn Chah in Thailand to receive a blessing. Ajahn Chah did not have any water around to sprinkle so he told the general to come before him and bow his head. When the general did this, Ajahn Chah leaned forward and spat on the general's head, then rubbed in it with his hand. He was really pressing his luck with that one, but he still got away with it."

:tongue:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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