Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

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Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:14 pm

I was listening to Joseph Goldstein again today, and this is just one of the best talks i've heard. Really hits the nail on the head, on the issue of craving, how important it is to let go, how difficult, and yet how this can be done, how we become gradually more enlightened by letting go of attachments, living more mindfully in the moment, living our lives with deeper awareness, one moment at a time.. If you have an interest, here it is...

Since I'm not a Theravadin practitioner there are probably important things he said that i missed, but its still one of the best dharma talks i've ever listened to...

The Buddha's Song Of Enlightenment: Achieved Is The End Of Craving 64:13

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:08 pm

Listening to Goldstein is time spent well spent.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:Listening to Goldstein is time spent well spent.


Yes, i very much think so.

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby Guy » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:07 am

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for posting this link!

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:24 pm

You're very welcome, Guy.

And here's another excellent dhamma talk by Goldstein, that Tilt recommended in another discussion. I've only gotten about 25 minutes in, but i agree with him, this too is EXCELLENT...!!

tiltbillings wrote:Here is a talk by Joseph Goldstein on the Five Hindrances:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/1382/

He takes them in reverse order, starting with doubt, talking about the hindrances in terms of actual practice. The whole talk is well worth listening to.


Image

:bow:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:26 am

P.S. Just want to give a big thank you to Retro for a link he shared elsewhere on the Buddha's advice concerning sexual cravings and how to diminish them. I live and work in a highly populated area where women seem to go out of their way (year round) to dress in a seductive manner. I hadn't realized until recently how much suffering i'd been creating for myself by "just looking..."

7 bows

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby Lazy_eye » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:52 pm

First time I've heard Goldstein, and it won't be the last. Thanks for posting this, Chris!

namaste

LE
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:03 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:First time I've heard Goldstein, and it won't be the last. Thanks for posting this, Chris!



Glad to be of some service.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:08 am

I just listened to another stellar dhamma talk by Joseph Goldstein, that relates to this topic, on Mindfulness of feelings... Anyone interested can download it from here....

Mindfulness of Feelings (Part 1 and 2)

:thumbsup:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby pink_trike » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:17 am

christopher::: wrote:P.S. Just want to give a big thank you to Retro for a link he shared elsewhere on the Buddha's advice concerning sexual cravings and how to diminish them. I live and work in a highly populated area where women seem to go out of their way (year round) to dress in a seductive manner. I hadn't realized until recently how much suffering i'd been creating for myself by "just looking..."

7 bows

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

This brings to mind Jimmy Carter's admission that he "lusted in my heart". Engaging in the processes of sexual looking and sexual fantasizing agitates and reinforces craving/becoming and differs from actually engaging in sexual activity only by degree.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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---

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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:21 pm

pink_trike wrote:Engaging in the processes of sexual looking and sexual fantasizing agitates and reinforces craving/becoming and differs from actually engaging in sexual activity only by degree.


yes, definitely. to me an analogy that seems to fit would be watering seeds, seeds of craving. No water, no sunlight, seeds are more likely to remain small and dormant....

throwing seeds away would be ideal, but as you were saying in another discussion, there are often shadows that remain.... which will probably morph into the real thing if given too much attention...

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:01 am

Update (one month later):

The desiring patterns of our body and mind do not give up, easily.... If only i lived in the mountains or in a monastary, this would be soooooooooo much easier......

:buddha1: :meditate: :jedi: :cry: Image :toilet: :buddha1:

oink!
:pig:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby pink_trike » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:26 am

christopher::: wrote:Update (one month later):

The desiring patterns of our body and mind do not give up, easily.... If only i lived in the mountains or in a monastary, this would be soooooooooo much easier......

:buddha1: :meditate: :jedi: :cry: Image :toilet: :buddha1:

oink!
:pig:

Its more difficult but more rewarding I think to subdue these desires in the thick of it. Easy to avoid them when the objects of the mind's stickiness are far away, but then when the objects appear again...how prepared are we really? Sometimes Chod'ing it is the most powerful and direct way. Like meditating in the charnal ground with rotting bodies all around you cuts through the fear of death. You're in the nubile-body ground, why not work directly with that? Look those desirous thoughts spang in the eye and see them for exactly what they are. Then let them liberate themselves as all thoughts do. Don't bite down on them. What an opportunity...what better place to confront that particular tic of the mind?

p.s what Dan says below is very useful also.
Last edited by pink_trike on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby Dan74 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:36 am

If only i lived in the mountains or in a monastary, this would be soooooooooo much easier......


Believing this may well be the greatest obstacle in your way, Chris.

What inspires me and helps in this way is

1. resolve - really wanting to. This is number one - dreaming of overcoming desire, of being free is very alluring. But we can't have both ways. We either keep dreaming or stop dreaming and start doing.

2. mindfulness - watching it arise, like a cat at the mouse-hole. Noting the moment and recalling our resolve. It may help to repeat the vow ("defilements arise endlessly, i vow to overcome them") over and over again. When we see a slight move in the direction of an unwholesome pattern we recall our resolve acknowledge the feeling and say "no" to it. Remove yourself from the situation when a lapse is likely. Bring attention to your breath. Etc etc. Whatever works for you.

I suspect you already know all this (I've probably said it before). So what's the sticking point?

_/|\_

PS What pink_trike is saying above may well be a better way. But my understanding is that you need skillful guidance for this. Is that right?
_/|\_
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:52 am

hi dan and pink,

These Joseph Goldstein talks have been extreeeemely helpful, in terms of guidance. I've been listening to him regularly, throughout the week. I think i definitely need more of a support system (such as an ungoing conversation like this) in order to stay mindful and maintain that "resolve." The suggestions you both have made, as well as tips others (such as retro) have tossed in have been very helpful.

Indeed, resolve is a BiG problem. My resolve weakens because a) these craving patterns have been fed and maintained for decades, b) due to my daily surroundings (mentioned earlier) which are unavoidable, and c) additional "temptations" that i unwisely and unmindfully "allow" to sneak in...

Example: I am able to order DVDs for our school library. Students love the US TV dramas, so i try to check them out and get some. Most have too much sex (Ally My Love, The OC) or violence (24), so i've ordered Kung Fu, Star Trek Voyager, Seinfeld Season 1, etc....

Well, i read somewhere that Barack Obama loves the drama Entourage. Never saw it, figured it would be a safe choice, ordered Seasons 1 and 2....

Oh my God. It's like, reliving freshman year fantasies (and some realities) when i was at college...

Yes, i know, just Stop Watching.... it's torture, painful... desire and excitement is suffering...
there's absolutely no question about that....

:toilet:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:22 pm

I think its letting the fact of that suffering really sink to the heart Christopher::: Dukkha really is one of the three characteristics of all sentient life, when that truly hits home things have a way of prioritising themselves. It cant be mended. What we CAN do is see it clearly.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:29 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:I think its letting the fact of that suffering really sink to the heart Christopher::: Dukkha really is one of the three characteristics of all sentient life, when that truly hits home things have a way of prioritising themselves. It cant be mended. What we CAN do is see it clearly.


Hi Sanghamitta.

Yes, i do think i've been seeing more clearly, how desire leads directly into suffering... but there is still a disconnect with pleasure.

To desire, and then refrain from feeding that desire, creates great suffering. Feeding the desire creates temporary relief, and pleasure, but also leads to continued suffering cause the desire returns.

One has to get out of this cycle. It's quite clear, yet also so powerful, like the gravitational pull of the earth, for whatever "pleasure" it is that a person most craves, and is easily available...

Chocolate, praise, video games, sexual release, success, social status, cigarettes, wine, etc...

The Web of Samsara that keeps us in chains...

:toilet:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:40 pm

As you might expect the Theravada has a slightly different take on samsara. Instead of simply being a contrast to Nibbana or in some unfeasable way the same as Nibbana, it is seen as a process. So Thanissaro Bhikku describes it as a process that we are engaged in. So samsara cannot keep us in chains. We forge the chains moment by moment .Whats stops that process is a clear view that it is we that are doing it. The things you mention, chocolate, praise, etc do not in themselves chain us. What does that it the illusion that there is a sold entity experiencing pleasure or pain. The root problem is our sense of a solid self. The reality is the kandhas. Ever changing, always in flux, having only the reality that we impute to the process at any given moment. So giving up chocolate may not help. What needs giving up is the sense of a seperate unchanging enjoyer.
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby christopher::: » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:52 am

Hi Sanghamitta. Thanks for responding.

Sanghamitta wrote:As you might expect the Theravada has a slightly different take on samsara. Instead of simply being a contrast to Nibbana or in some unfeasable way the same as Nibbana, it is seen as a process. So Thanissaro Bhikku describes it as a process that we are engaged in. So samsara cannot keep us in chains.


Yes, definitely.

We forge the chains moment by moment. Whats stops that process is a clear view that it is we that are doing it. The things you mention, chocolate, praise, etc do not in themselves chain us. What does that it the illusion that there is a sold entity experiencing pleasure or pain. The root problem is our sense of a solid self.


But if there is no self, how can "we" be forging the chains, "we" be doing it? You mean the desire patterns, habit patterns of mind that arise which our awareness takes to be our solid "selves" right?

The reality is the kandhas. Ever changing, always in flux, having only the reality that we impute to the process at any given moment. So giving up chocolate may not help. What needs giving up is the sense of a separate unchanging enjoyer.


Okay, i had to go look up kandhas. YES, there is in reality no "you" "I" "we"-- its the mental aggregates that create this... The mind needs to see them for what they are, ever changing, always in flux, not self. I was just listening to another talk by Goldstein btw, really brilliant, where he also describes this process very well...

2005-01-03 Desire: The Driving Force Of Samsara

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Postby seanpdx » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:32 pm

christopher::: wrote:
We forge the chains moment by moment. Whats stops that process is a clear view that it is we that are doing it. The things you mention, chocolate, praise, etc do not in themselves chain us. What does that it the illusion that there is a sold entity experiencing pleasure or pain. The root problem is our sense of a solid self.


But if there is no self, how can "we" be forging the chains, "we" be doing it? You mean the desire patterns, habit patterns of mind that arise which our awareness takes to be our solid "selves" right?


Don't focus so much on whether there is or is not a self. It's a moot point. You bind yourself. That's the important thing.

But I also disagree with the idea that the "root problem is our sense of a solid self".
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