Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suwat » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:36 pm

What ever intension you have apply but now the vinaya rules are improperly disputed. Human right and clergy rules is different story.Ordination will be merely a robe uniform or ritual if you're heart is not ordained.
Heart ordination better than critcized ordination.
With Metta
Upasaka
suwat
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:49 pm

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:46 pm

This may have been mentioned before but I hadn't seen it:
The Creation of the Order of Siladhara
by Ajahn Sucitto, November 5, 2009

I have been offered trays of flowers and had things thrown at me. And there is the ongoing dilemma of being a 20th century westerner (and ex-hippy to boot) with the cultural attitude of male-female parity, yet committed to a Buddhist lineage that has non-parity at the roots of its conventional structures. I have no doubt been less than perfect under the stress of all these conflicts, but it has left me with no solid ground. And for that I am grateful.
http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spi ... ticle10061

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10280
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby notself » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:08 am

Here is a slightly different take on things.

http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spi ... ticle10103
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
notself
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:53 am

Hi Notself
Thanks for that article, it raises some points which have been brought up previously in this thread - not to far back - as well as some very interesting information.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5743
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:50 am

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=1 ... opic=12062

Report from Sanitsuda ...

Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn presided at the press conference today to urge the Office of National Buddhism and the Council of Elders to issue rules and regulations to empower the Thai Sangha to punish monks overseas who violate the Sangha's mandates.

Phra Kru Opas spoke on behalf of the Wat Pah Pong executive board which made this decision last week.... See More

Rough summary of press releases:

The Perth ordination is against the Vinaya-Dharma of Thai Theravada Buddhism as well as violating the Wat Pah Pong's prohibition against female ordination. Aj Brahm was summoned to admit his mistake which refused to do, resulting in the excommunication. This decision was later approved by Somdet Phra Puttajarn who said Aj Brahm's preceptorship was therefore automatically revoked.

Apart from ordaining women, Aj Brahm was also accused of temple mismanagement. The Bodhinyana Temple came into being through the faith and donations of Thai Buddhists in Perth. After the first abbot left monkhood, Aj Brahm was appointed as abbot and he later changed the temple bylaws and change the temple committee members for "his own interest" despite disagreement from the Bodhinyana Sangha.

Given that the Bhikkhuni ordination and temple ownership problems have greatly troubled the Thai Buddhists in Australia, a committee should be set up to investigate land ownership and temple mismanagement at Bodhinyana in order to return the land and temple to the Thai Buddhists and to ensure that the temple management is in line with Dhamma Vinaya.

To prevent future problems, rules and regulations should be issued so the Thai Sangha can punish the monks overseas who violate th laws and the clergy's mandates.

On temple ownership overseas, this poses a problem of control because temples are owned by associations not the Thai Sangha like temples in Thailand. Should the abbots err, they still can stay if the temple committee support them. Or, when the abbots are in the right, they cannot stay if they don't have support of the committee. The management of temples in Thailand, however, is under Thai Sangha's administrative structure. When problems occur like in the case of Bodhinyana, it is then difficult to move due to lack of uniform rules which effectively govern temples in Thailand. To prevent similar problems, there should be a state agency to enforce the Thai Sangha law and to cover temples overseas.

I asked whether WPP sent emails to the Thai embasy and Sinporean organisers of Aj Brahm's talks, the answer is no, WPP did not do that.

Asked if this control effort have been approved by the Western clergy since it would affect the Western monks' relative autonomy which is useful to their dharma work, the answer that it is the decision of the WPP board consisting of 12 senior monks. That it was approved by LP Liam. But the answer was not clear if the Western Sangha was fully consulted or not.

Phra Kru Sudhamprachote said many Thai Buddhists in Perth are unhappy with Aj Brahm and are trying to find way to get him out the temple. But this is up to the people, WPP cannot do anything to support this action.

I asked if WPP has an alternative to Bhikkhuni. Aj Kevali is in favour of the Siladhara order. But Phra Kru Opas outrightly dismissed it, saying it it would be difficult for the order to be accepted in Thailand. He described Bhikkhuni ordination as against the Dhamma Vinaya. That the Buddha advised monks to stay away from women, because women and monks are like fire and fuel.

I asked what is the real issue concerning Aj Brahm, Bhikkhuni ordination or Aj Brahm's secrecy and failure to consult the WPP clergy. Phra Kru Opas said the main issue is Bhikkhuni ordination. That there is no way that Thai Theravada Buddhism to have Bhikkhuni. And as far WPP concerns, Aj Brahm is no longer a Thai Theravada monk, but a Mahayana monk.

My hunch : This might be part of the existing problems of internal politics between Thai and Western monks in the WPP order. Luang Por Chah wanted the Western clergy to oversee the Western monks. Consequently, Thai monks have no say on temples overseas. But the Perth ordination shows Aj Sumedho's failure to keep the monks under his supervision in line so the Thai monks have the reason to step in to control the Western monks and the temple properties abroad.
-----------------------
Bankei
Bankei
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:19 am

Bankei wrote:Rough summary of press releases:

The Perth ordination is against the Vinaya-Dharma of Thai Theravada Buddhism as well as violating the Wat Pah Pong's prohibition against female ordination. Aj Brahm was summoned to admit his mistake which refused to do, resulting in the excommunication. This decision was later approved by Somdet Phra Puttajarn who said Aj Brahm's preceptorship was therefore automatically revoked.

Apart from ordaining women, Aj Brahm was also accused of temple mismanagement. The Bodhinyana Temple came into being through the faith and donations of Thai Buddhists in Perth. After the first abbot left monkhood, Aj Brahm was appointed as abbot and he later changed the temple bylaws and change the temple committee members for "his own interest" despite disagreement from the Bodhinyana Sangha.

This is worded completely differently to other releases and has new 'charges' (accusations doesn't seam like the right word and charges seams iffy also).

My hunch : This might be part of the existing problems of internal politics between Thai and Western monks in the WPP order. Luang Por Chah wanted the Western clergy to oversee the Western monks. Consequently, Thai monks have no say on temples overseas. But the Perth ordination shows Aj Sumedho's failure to keep the monks under his supervision in line so the Thai monks have the reason to step in to control the Western monks and the temple properties abroad.

The whole of the western sangha isn't under Sumedhos supervision! and only the monks ordained by him still in training could be said to be under his supervision.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5743
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suanck » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:31 am

Bankei wrote:http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=153235999615&topic=12062
Report from Sanitsuda ...


See also comments by Ven Sujato: http://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/wat-pa-pong-press-conference/

Suan
suanck
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:51 am

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:06 am

where is the original?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5743
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:07 am

Bankei wrote:Report from Sanitsuda ...

Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn presided at the press conference today to urge the Office of National Buddhism and the Council of Elders to issue rules and regulations to empower the Thai Sangha to punish monks overseas who violate the Sangha's mandates.


Politics as usual

Bankei wrote:Rough summary of press releases:

The Perth ordination is against the Vinaya-Dharma of Thai Theravada Buddhism as well as violating the Wat Pah Pong's prohibition against female ordination. Aj Brahm was summoned to admit his mistake which refused to do, resulting in the excommunication. This decision was later approved by Somdet Phra Puttajarn who said Aj Brahm's preceptorship was therefore automatically revoked.


Funnily enough, could someone please point me to a passage of the Vinaya where it states that ecclesiastical heads can revoke the rights of a Monk's preceptorship (assuming he's in good standing as a monk)?

Bankei wrote:Apart from ordaining women, Aj Brahm was also accused of temple mismanagement. The Bodhinyana Temple came into being through the faith and donations of Thai Buddhists in Perth. After the first abbot left monkhood, Aj Brahm was appointed as abbot and he later changed the temple bylaws and change the temple committee members for "his own interest" despite disagreement from the Bodhinyana Sangha.


Thai ecclesiasticals having a go at Ajahn Brahm for temple mismanagement - Pot calling the kettle black don't you think?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:03 am

I for one am glad the WPP is clearly showing its attitude to Western Buddhism

To me it shows that the issue is not about the Bhikkhini ordination but about control

In the words of Lord Acton "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

I now wait to see how the members of WAM respond

Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm
User avatar
bodhabill
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:38 am
Location: NSW Australia

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Vardali » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:26 am

Manapa wrote:where is the original?


That is my question as well. In the internet age, anything can be faked and just self-referenced.

With this in mind, IF this turns out to be the "real" WPP approach, well, I guess I will say a few words on this matter later ;)
User avatar
Vardali
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:56 am

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suanck » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:43 am

Vardali wrote:
Manapa wrote:where is the original?


That is my question as well. In the internet age, anything can be faked and just self-referenced.

With this in mind, IF this turns out to be the "real" WPP approach, well, I guess I will say a few words on this matter later ;)


This is what I know:

- The original news posted by Bankei (also appeared in Ven Sujato's Blog) was written by Ms Sanitsuda Ekachai -- a columnist of the Bangkok Post. She apparently attended the press conference organized by the WPP senior monks in Thailand, on Sun 27 Dec 2009, and reported the event.

I don't know if there is an official report yet (either in Thai or in English).

Suan.
suanck
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:51 am

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:31 am

Where is the original?

And where is the official statement released by the ForestSangha?
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7528
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:10 am

manapa said: The whole of the western sangha isn't under Sumedhos supervision!


I assume you mean Ajahn Sumedho?
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7528
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:19 am

Hi Chris

As a journalist Sanitsuda Ekachai, has herself what they'd call a 'breaking story'.
Given the length of time ForestSangha website took to respond to the initial event that started this whole thing, I wouldn't expect an official response any time soon. Dhammalight website will probably have something fairly soon though, as it's a little closer to the source of this controversy.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:25 am

From facebook

Mushy Mushroom wrote 4 hours ago

I've just come across this news article on http://dailynews.co.th/newstartpage/pri ... ntid=39984. The content is similar to what Khun Sanitsuda reported above. However, there are some additional points in this article that I would like to translate for you who do not read Thai:

1. Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn urged the Office of National Buddhism to get the owership of the land of Bodhiyana Monastery back to Wat Pah Pong because Thai Buddhists in Australia gave that land to Ajahn Chah when Ajahn Chah visited Perth.

(I have a book on Ajahn Chah's biography but have never seen any mention of Ajahn Chah's visiting Australia. Please correct me if I am wrong.)

2. Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn said that Wat Pah Pong asked Ajahn Brahm to come to Wat Pah Pong on Jan 16 to ask for forgiveness, but Ajahn Brahm already said no.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:03 am

I've searched for the original but cannot find anything on Santisuda's blog.

It must be fake. No monk could hold such views?! Especially a non-detached forest monk. Who is the monk Opaswuthikorn? Anyone know?

The whole question of the ownership of monastic property is an interesting one too.
-----------------------
Bankei
Bankei
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:28 am

Well, Sanitsuda Ekachai's twitter speaks a very similar tone to the original story.

http://twitter.com/Sanitsuda

All the same it is pretty strange that for a 'press conference' there isn't much substantiated evidence here. Time will tell I guess...
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:11 am

Hi All,
Blackbird - he hasn't been prevented from being a preceptor in Theravada as far as I am aware, he has been stopped from being a preceptor in the Thai Sangha however.

Chris - no Chao Khun Raja Sumedhajahn.

For a rough summary of the press release it is using wordings which hasn't been found in press releases, surely this would of been a cut and paste job instead of a writing from memory?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5743
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:32 am

Manapa wrote:he has been stopped from being a preceptor in the Thai Sangha however.


There's an inference to be drawn there my friend :)

W/re to this 'press conference' all we've got is what's on Sanitsuda's twitter, an article that seems to have appeared out of thin air on facebook, and something written in Thai.

Just a little ironic...
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1860
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

PreviousNext

Return to Ordination and Monastic Life

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests