Moral decline in the west

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Moral decline in the west

Postby Individual » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:13 pm

Along with the various school shootings, two recent news stories in the news make me think there's an overall decline in morality in the west:

10 kids set another kid on fire, over a videogame debt:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/broward ... 81802.html

Richmond High gang-rape (on school property):
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_13669485? ... ck_check=1

If you look into the details of the second story, there's more startling details: Although only 4 were charged with rape, they say that the girl was attacked by at least a dozen people and at least two dozen more knew what was going on but didn't contact the police.

And if this doesn't shock you, what about this video of 50-60 high school students, who conspire to vandalize and rob a convenience store:
http://www.snewzbutton.com/2009/10/enti ... hild-riot/

Although I'm only 25, it's hard for me to picture this sort of thing happening decades ago.

With these anecdotal examples in mind...

Do you see an overall moral decline in the west and if so, what can Buddhists do about it?
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby adosa » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:25 pm

And yet we have more "riches" than ever before.

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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby pink_trike » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:36 pm

It's not just the West...it's the whole world. It's just that time again.
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby Guy » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:43 pm

Hi Individual,

It is sad that these kind of things happen but this is Samsara, these things happen. My personal opinion is that there is very little we can do to change the values and behaviour of 6 billion people. What we can do is work on our own mental, verbal and bodily conduct and hopefully serve as an example to others. Even if we were Arahants the world would still continue to go it's own way - the ver best thing we can do is to get out of it's way.

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2) Throwing things away
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby notself » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:16 am

Aggression, rape, moral decline may be related to population pressure. This is an interesting article about experiments done on rats and mice. Food and water was not a problem but overcrowding and unfair distribution of space resources (greed by a few) was a problem.

He described the onset of several pathologies: violence and aggression, with rats in the crowded pen “going berserk, attacking females, juveniles and less-active males.” There was also “sexual deviance.” Rats became hypersexual, pursuing females relentlessly even when not in heat.


http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters ... story1.htm

We have overcroweded cities on an overpopulated planet and one other stressor, dramatically unequal distribution of wealth. TV provides a window into the lives of the very rich which stimulates the craving of the average person with no outlet for the stress. The average person will never be able to own a $35,000 handbag or spend $65,000 for one night in a hotel. There is even craving for cell phones that cost $1,000.

Perhaps the human race could fall into a "behavioral sink" that ends up part of the result of global warming further restricting living space and resources forcing closer interaction between cultures and peoples.

Just some thoughts.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby poto » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:56 am

These types of violent crimes have always happened. It's only in recent years that the media has increasingly reported them, making them seem more frequent. The reality is violent crime here in America has been dropping for most of the last 2 decades.

Interesting and somewhat related article:
http://reason.com/archives/2009/10/19/w ... felons-now
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby pink_trike » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:23 am

There is a natural rhythm to the world that isn't linear...it is more like a pulse or breathing:

rise, peak, pause, decline, peak, pause...repeat, over and over and over.

This was widely known as "the endless cycles of cycles" or "the cycles of time" in the ancient eastern world, and it was known in the ancient western hemisphere as "the burden of time". This pulse governs the recurring rising and falling in varying degrees of the entire phenomenal world, endlessly.

We're seeing decline and deterioration across the board - ecosystem, climate (not just Planet Earth), oceans, morals, economy, species, mental function, health, Earth's magnetic field and shield, etc... The entirety of the ancient world were aware of these endless periods of rise and decline. In our linear, ever-forward world we get freaked out by the decline part of the cycles and start pointing fingers and blaming - but it's just time for decline/deterioration again...and as a civilization we're clueless, lost, and unprepared to deal with it. As individuals we're unprepared and clueless how to deal with decline and deterioration of the microcosmic ecosystem that we know of as body, and we don't recognize the same pattern that takes place in the midstream because very few of us are trained to even look at the mind.

Geologists and climatologists are the most aware of these periods of decline of stability but our modern compartmentalized culture has made it taboo for them to connect the dots found in the geological records with patterns in history or any field of inquiry outside of their own - or in the collective mind. Ancient cultures advocated repose during periods of decline in order to minimize damage, and then fostered inspired activity during periods of regeneration...living with the cycles instead of outside of them and more at risk. Surrendering whims of the minds and living with and within the boundaries and cycles of time/space was considered to be a liberation from the constant grinding and scraping that comes from living outside of them, unaware of them, and being endlessly at their effect.
Last edited by pink_trike on Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby pink_trike » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:34 am

poto wrote:These types of violent crimes have always happened.

History and the archeological record disagree with you. There have been vast stretches of time found in layers of the archeological record that show a complete absence of violence in civilization...no skeletons bearing evidence of wounds, no weaponry except ineffective useless stylizations of ritual weapons, no burned looted cities, no mass war graveyards. These layers of time are found between layers of violent cultures.

And there is much debate about those statistics re: a decrease in violent crime. Many of us who are older find those statistics to be violently at odds with current reality. In my teens violent crime such as is everyday news in our current time was virtually unheard of. I learned in my statistics class that just about any set of statistics can be manipulated so that they appear to support any side or nuance of any debate. All statistical reports should be taken with many grains of salt, especially if they are radically opposed to what our senses and circumstances are constantly revealing to us.
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby poto » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:29 am

pink_trike wrote:
poto wrote:These types of violent crimes have always happened.

History and the archeological record disagree with you. There have been vast stretches of time found in layers of the archeological record that show a complete absence of violence in civilization...no skeletons bearing evidence of wounds, no weaponry except ineffective useless stylizations of ritual weapons, no burned looted cities, no mass war graveyards. These layers of time are found between layers of violent cultures.

And there is much debate about those statistics re: a decrease in violent crime. Many of us who are older find those statistics to be violently at odds with current reality. In my teens violent crime such as is everyday news in our current time was virtually unheard of. I learned in my statistics class that just about any set of statistics can be manipulated so that they appear to support any side or nuance of any debate. All statistical reports should be taken with many grains of salt, especially if they are radically opposed to what our senses and circumstances are constantly revealing to us.


What purpose would the Department of Justice have to under-reporting crime statistics? If there's more crime, they get more funding. Really, all they are doing is counting police reports of crimes. You could argue that there might be a discrepancy in reported crimes vs. actual crimes occurred. I'm usually weary of any government statistics, especially any that may serve a political purpose, but I don't think the violent crime statistics are being fudged.

As to your fantasy that primitive people somehow lived a peaceful existence. Please study history more. All past civilizations known have been violent. Many were built on the backs of slave labor like the Romans, Egyptians, etc.

Remember that frozen guy they found a while back:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman

He was murdered.

Many ancient cities were burned and looted, often numerous times. The lack of evidence of mass graves and such is likely due to the fact that it occurred so long ago that much of it completely degraded. Also, in ancient times people only had primitive weapons with limited range and effectiveness, so it was much easier for people to flee the cities and escape death when attacked.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby pink_trike » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:49 am

poto wrote:As to your fantasy that primitive people somehow lived a peaceful existence. Please study history more. All past civilizations known have been violent. Many were built on the backs of slave labor like the Romans, Egyptians, etc.

What I stated is that there are layers of human occupation found in the geological record where all the complex and substantial remnants of extended well-established civilization are found with the exception of any traces of violence. This isn't a fantasy...it is the confirmed findings of many generations of well-trained establishment archeologists over several decades. These substantial well-established and lengthy layers of civilization noted for their lack of violence are found in between layers of violent civilizations that precede and follow them.

Violence is not a given in civilization nor is it just human nature, it is a product of an amalgamation of circumstances and reactions that are not always present at certain times and are very present at others. The archeological record clearly shows this, and the records of many of our premodern ancestors confirm it. If we care to do the research.
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby poto » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:17 am

pink_trike wrote:
poto wrote:As to your fantasy that primitive people somehow lived a peaceful existence. Please study history more. All past civilizations known have been violent. Many were built on the backs of slave labor like the Romans, Egyptians, etc.

What I stated is that there are layers of human occupation found in the geological record where all the complex and substantial remnants of extended well-established civilization are found with the exception of any traces of violence. This isn't a fantasy...it is the confirmed findings of many generations of well-trained establishment archeologists over several decades. These substantial well-established and lengthy layers of civilization noted for their lack of violence are found in between layers of violent civilizations that precede and follow them.

Violence is not a given in civilization nor is it just human nature, it is a product of an amalgamation of circumstances and reactions that are not always present at certain times and are very present at others. The archeological record clearly shows this, and the records of many of our premodern ancestors confirm it. If we care to do the research.



I don't believe you. Lots of weapons were found in Native American burial mounds, and not just ritualized instruments. Tribes routinely warred with other tribes. Some of the most ancient texts we have, Hindu and Sumerian speak of wars and battles. The concept of violence and war clearly was not alien to ancient cultures.

Care to cite a source to backup your statements?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby pink_trike » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:54 am

poto wrote:The concept of violence and war clearly was not alien to ancient cultures.


I didn't suggest that it wasn't. In fact, I clearly stated that it is visible in some layers of the archeological record in both posts (and clearly not in others)...perhaps you overlooked this. If you're going to disagree with me, please read my posts carefully first. :toast:
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby poto » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:07 am

pink_trike wrote:
poto wrote:The concept of violence and war clearly was not alien to ancient cultures.


I didn't suggest that it wasn't. In fact, I clearly stated that it is visible in some layers of the archeological record in both posts (and clearly not in others)...perhaps you overlooked this. If you're going to disagree with me, please read my posts carefully first. :toast:


I'll ask again.

pink_trike wrote:extended well-established civilization are found with the exception of any traces of violence.


Do you have any source that you can show me of an extended well-established civilization that was found without any traces of violence?? If so I'd love to read about it.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby pink_trike » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:53 am

poto wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
poto wrote:The concept of violence and war clearly was not alien to ancient cultures.


I didn't suggest that it wasn't. In fact, I clearly stated that it is visible in some layers of the archeological record in both posts (and clearly not in others)...perhaps you overlooked this. If you're going to disagree with me, please read my posts carefully first. :toast:


I'll ask again.

pink_trike wrote:extended well-established civilization are found with the exception of any traces of violence.


Do you have any source that you can show me of an extended well-established civilization that was found without any traces of violence?? If so I'd love to read about it.


There are quite a few places - I'd have to go digging through my papers, but I recall that there is a distinct and separate layer of the archeological record of a highly advanced civilization in Pakistan - I think around 3100 BC in which there was were found no weaponry, no signs of kingship or armies, no prisons, an absence of skeletons with wound marks, no evidence of slaves, etc...no record of violence found in this large established city state. Archeologists are very thorough...they know what people ate for breakfast 5000 years ago. Also several sites in High Northern Europe. I'm sure the Google God can find some info for you.
Last edited by pink_trike on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:54 am

pink_trike wrote:rise, peak, pause, decline, peak, pause...repeat, over and over and over..

or as those great prophet's of Metallica taught us in there most recent prophetic offering:
extract of lyrics from Cyanide, by Metallica wrote:You rise, you fall, you're down and you rise again. What don't kill you [will] make you more strong.
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby BlackBird » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:25 am

pink_trike wrote:There is a natural rhythm to the world that isn't linear...it is more like a pulse or breathing:

rise, peak, pause, decline, peak, pause...repeat, over and over and over.

This was widely known as "the endless cycles of cycles" or "the cycles of time" in the ancient eastern world, and it was known in the ancient western hemisphere as "the burden of time". This pulse governs the recurring rising and falling in varying degrees of the entire phenomenal world, endlessly.

We're seeing decline and deterioration across the board - ecosystem, climate (not just Planet Earth), oceans, morals, economy, species, mental function, health, Earth's magnetic field and shield, etc... The entirety of the ancient world were aware of these endless periods of rise and decline. In our linear, ever-forward world we get freaked out by the decline part of the cycles and start pointing fingers and blaming - but it's just time for decline/deterioration again...and as a civilization we're clueless, lost, and unprepared to deal with it. As individuals we're unprepared and clueless how to deal with decline and deterioration of the microcosmic ecosystem that we know of as body, and we don't recognize the same pattern that takes place in the midstream because very few of us are trained to even look at the mind.

Geologists and climatologists are the most aware of these periods of decline of stability but our modern compartmentalized culture has made it taboo for them to connect the dots found in the geological records with patterns in history or any field of inquiry outside of their own - or in the collective mind. Ancient cultures advocated repose during periods of decline in order to minimize damage, and then fostered inspired activity during periods of regeneration...living with the cycles instead of outside of them and more at risk. Surrendering whims of the minds and living with and within the boundaries and cycles of time/space was considered to be a liberation from the constant grinding and scraping that comes from living outside of them, unaware of them, and being endlessly at their effect.


:goodpost:

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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby enkidu » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:56 pm

At the risk of being trite, "Samsara is suffering."

Whenever I notice that I am expressing disappointment over world events, I try to remind myself that this is a subtle expression of my attachment to Samsara; that it indicates that I do not have conviction in the suffering nature of Samsara and its causes.

Clinging to expectations about the conduct of Samsaric beings does not lead me to develop compassion for them and indicates that I do not hold Samsaric beings as motivated by the three poisons. It indicates that I believe lasting happiness and uninterrupted peace can and should be found in Samsara, and that non-suffering results should somehow arise from suffering causes.

So the lemons into lemonade here for me is to view atrocity and so on as indications of the suffering nature of Samsara and as strong motivation to practice in order to cease its causes.

Though, I have great difficulty.
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby poto » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:01 pm

pink_trike wrote:There are quite a few places - I'd have to go digging through my papers, but I recall that there is a distinct and separate layer of the archeological record of a highly advanced civilization in Pakistan - I think around 3100 BC in which there was were found no weaponry, no signs of kingship or armies, no prisons, an absence of skeletons with wound marks, no evidence of slaves, etc...no record of violence found in this large established city state. Archeologists are very thorough...they know what people ate for breakfast 5000 years ago. Also several sites in High Northern Europe. I'm sure the Google God can find some info for you.


I thought you might mention the Indus Valley civilization, also known to the Hindus as Rama. Before I became Buddhist I spent a great deal of time reading and studying ancient texts. I was one of those people who mistakenly thought the older the text the better. As such I did read a lot of Vedic texts. In those texts a great deal of information about an ancient civilization that existed in India was preserved, this was known to them as the civilization of Rama. If you read the Vedic texts you'll find plenty of accounts of wars and conflicts that existed within that civilization.

I am not so well versed on ancient Nordic civilization. I will attempt to read up on that. I am aware of the democratic tradition of the Vikings. However, I am also aware of their history of warfare. Can you point to a specific region or period where these peaceful times occurred so that I may narrow my search?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby pink_trike » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:16 pm

poto wrote: If you read the Vedic texts you'll find plenty of accounts of wars and conflicts that existed within that civilization.

What you refer to as "that era" is divided into several distinct eras each spanning a significantly long period of time, each with identifiable beginnings and endings. In the archeological record eras are usually separated by complete collapse and later rebuilt in the same area on top of the ruins of previous civilizations...sometimes as many as 20 distinctly different eras layered in the same area, one on top of the other. There is a separate and distinct era/layer/build of civilization preserved in the archeological record of that region that has been noted as free from evidence of violence from beginning to end.
Vision is Mind
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Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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Re: Moral decline in the west

Postby poto » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:45 pm

pink_trike wrote:
poto wrote: If you read the Vedic texts you'll find plenty of accounts of wars and conflicts that existed within that civilization.

What you refer to as "that era" is divided into several distinct eras each spanning a significantly long period of time, each with identifiable beginnings and endings. In the archeological record eras are usually separated by complete collapse and later rebuilt in the same area on top of the ruins of previous civilizations...sometimes as many as 20 distinctly different eras layered in the same area, one on top of the other. There is a separate and distinct era/layer/build of civilization preserved in the archeological record of that region that has been noted as free from evidence of violence from beginning to end.


OK, let me see if I understand what you're trying to say.

You think that since archeologists didn't find evidence of violence for certain periods of time, that somehow these eras were devoid of violence? Furthermore, you make assumptions on human nature and extinct cultures based on a lack of data? Seems like a pretty bit leap you're making there. You seem like an intelligent fellow, which is why I'm having a hard time with what you're saying. It seems to me like you are trying to twist something to fit your preconceived notions. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Still you have not cited any actual papers or publications to backup your claims, which makes me think your claims are dubious.

IMHO, humans are born as ignorant beings. That ignorance gives rise to suffering and violence. Through the Dhamma, we are able to overcome our ignorance and subdue those violent impulses.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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