Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom
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mikenz66
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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:22 am

Hi mirco,

Is there some historical evidence for this statement?

Mike

mirco wrote:Dear Goedert,

now I got the direc answer from that monk, first was fram an assistant:

Greetings Mirco,

I didn't say that Buddhagosa realized that he made mistakes. What I said was
after about 15 years some other monks had had studied the original scriptures
and had found some mistakes that didn't agree with the suttas but the Vissudhi
Magga had become too popular to stop. Hope this clears this up for you.


That cleared up things for me.

Metta, always,
:) Mirco

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:22 am

pilgrim wrote:I've often come across the position that if something is in the VM and not in the suttas, then the VM should be rejected.


What if that "thing" is something that leads to the end of afflictions, and ultimate liberation? Would you still reject it?
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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:40 am

mirco wrote:Dear Goedert,

now I got the direc answer from that monk, first was fram an assistant:

Greetings Mirco,

I didn't say that Buddhagosa realized that he made mistakes. What I said was
after about 15 years some other monks had had studied the original scriptures
and had found some mistakes that didn't agree with the suttas but the Vissudhi
Magga had become too popular to stop. Hope this clears this up for you.


That cleared up things for me.

Metta, always,
:) Mirco
But certainly not for me. I would like to see the historical evidence to support this. Point me to an historical study that supports this. As it stands, the above statement from "that monk" is not credible.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby Goedert » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:
pilgrim wrote:I've often come across the position that if something is in the VM and not in the suttas, then the VM should be rejected. I feel that is unnecessary...

Sure. Of course it's sensible to think carefully about any instructions, but I see no obvious reason to think that the interpretations of a particular modern teacher are more reliable than the interpretations of other modern or ancient teachers...

Mike


Need to second that.

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby legolas » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:15 pm

People take the Buddha and his teachings in the sutta/vinaya as authorative.
People take Buddhagosa and his work as authorative.
People take the view that Buddhagosa's works "explained" or amplified the Buddha's words.
People accept sutta/vinaya and Buddhagosa's teachings and find no discrepancy.
People find discrepancies between the Buddha and Buddhagosa and rely on Buddhagosa's interpretation.
People totally reject Buddhagosa's works because of inconsistancies with the sutta/vinaya.
People accept the sutta and vinaya and only accept Buddhagosa's works when they are totally in line with the sutta/vinaya

It would be interesting to do a poll on peoples views about this. I am sure there are many other views on Buddha/Buddhagosa and my list above could be extended.

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby mirco » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:04 pm

mirco wrote:
a Venerable wrote:"What I said was after about 15 years some other monks had had
studied the original scriptures and had found some mistakes that didn't agree with
the suttas but the Vissudhi Magga had become too popular to stop


mikenz66 wrote:Is there some historical evidence for this statement?


Hi Mike,

I don't know. But you could find it out though following the training advices in the Suttas precisely,
gain insight and compare the Suttas and the VM with your insight and wisdom.


Metta, always, :) Mirco
I get what I give

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:53 pm

mirco wrote:
I don't know. But you could find it out though following the training advices in the Suttas precisely,
gain insight and compare the Suttas and the VM with your insight and wisdom.
The first sentence reads correctly. Based upon my 40+ years of experience and those of teachers who have worked directly with both, I find this sort of wholesale rejection of the VM unwarranted. And I find Theravadin teachers who, in regard to other Theravadin teachers, take essentially what boils down to a "I've-got-it-right,-everyone-else-is-wrong" stance worth turning one's back to. There are better teachers out there.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:33 pm

mirco wrote:
mirco wrote:
a Venerable wrote:"What I said was after about 15 years some other monks had had
studied the original scriptures and had found some mistakes that didn't agree with
the suttas but the Vissudhi Magga had become too popular to stop

mikenz66 wrote:Is there some historical evidence for this statement?

Hi Mike,

I don't know. But you could find it out though following the training advices in the Suttas precisely,
gain insight and compare the Suttas and the VM with your insight and wisdom.

Metta, always, :) Mirco

This is, of course, what we are all trying to do...

However, it hardly seems relevant to my question about historical evidence for the actions of monks 15 years after the publication of the Visuddhimagga.

Mike

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby legolas » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:05 am

tiltbillings wrote:
mirco wrote:
I don't know. But you could find it out though following the training advices in the Suttas precisely,
gain insight and compare the Suttas and the VM with your insight and wisdom.
The first sentence reads correctly. Based upon my 40+ years of experience and those of teachers who have worked directly with both, I find this sort of wholesale rejection of the VM unwarranted. And I find Theravadin teachers who, in regard to other Theravadin teachers, take essentially what boils down to a "I've-got-it-right,-everyone-else-is-wrong" stance worth turning one's back to. There are better teachers out there.


Obviously we all have our own opinions of what is warranted and what is not. I quite like teachers who are prepared to go back to the original source and not put faith into lesser works. ( Before anybody starts shouting, the VM has to be considered a lesser work, even if you agree with every word it says.) After all it is "Buddhism" and not Buddhaghosa-ism.

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:51 am

legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
mirco wrote:
I don't know. But you could find it out though following the training advices in the Suttas precisely,
gain insight and compare the Suttas and the VM with your insight and wisdom.
The first sentence reads correctly. Based upon my 40+ years of experience and those of teachers who have worked directly with both, I find this sort of wholesale rejection of the VM unwarranted. And I find Theravadin teachers who, in regard to other Theravadin teachers, take essentially what boils down to a "I've-got-it-right,-everyone-else-is-wrong" stance worth turning one's back to. There are better teachers out there.


Obviously we all have our own opinions of what is warranted and what is not. I quite like teachers who are prepared to go back to the original source and not put faith into lesser works. ( Before anybody starts shouting, the VM has to be considered a lesser work, even if you agree with every word it says.) After all it is "Buddhism" and not Buddhaghosa-ism.
It is a tricky question. I would not say that the VM is above criticism, but I would say that that the VM is a legitimate and efficacious path of practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:55 am

Obviously we all have our own opinions of what is warranted and what is not. I quite like teachers who are prepared to go back to the original source and not put faith into lesser works. ( Before anybody starts shouting, the VM has to be considered a lesser work, even if you agree with every word it says.) After all it is "Buddhism" and not Buddhaghosa-ism.
It is a tricky question. I would not say that the VM is above criticism, but I would say that that the VM is a legitimate and efficacious path of practice.


Which seems to me to be the main criterion, and which could be extended to the whole canon.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:25 am

Sanghamitta wrote:
Obviously we all have our own opinions of what is warranted and what is not. I quite like teachers who are prepared to go back to the original source and not put faith into lesser works. ( Before anybody starts shouting, the VM has to be considered a lesser work, even if you agree with every word it says.) After all it is "Buddhism" and not Buddhaghosa-ism.
It is a tricky question. I would not say that the VM is above criticism, but I would say that that the VM is a legitimate and efficacious path of practice.


Which seems to me to be the main criterion, and which could be extended to the whole canon.
And?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:33 am

And the path of practice is my main concern. We can pursue the path of the "authentic" until we are blue in the face. I have seen it happen.
But in the end it is our experience of the fruits of practice and our knowledge of the Canon working together which becomes the acme.
If we wait until we are clear about constitutes the "authentic" before embarking on a realisation of Dhamma we can find half our life or more has passed while gather data. Sometimes its... Ready ! fire! aim !...
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Visuddhimagga a mistake?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:34 am

Sanghamitta wrote:And the path of practice is my main concern. We can pursue the path of the "authentic" until we are blue in the face. I have seen it happen.
But in the end it is our experience of the fruits of practice and our knowledge of the Canon working together which becomes the acme.
If we wait until we are clear about constitutes the "authentic" before embarking on a realisation of Dhamma we can find half our life or more has passed while gather data. Sometimes its... Ready ! fire! aim !...
I do not disagree.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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