Richard Gombrich

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alan
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by alan »

You're missing the point, RYB.
Gombrich simply asserts that the Pali Canon reflects the teachings of one man, who was a genius. He's countering those who might argue that it is a collection of many views, or the nefarious idea that we can't really tell if there ever was such a person.
This has nothing to do with achievements or levels of understanding.
Shonin
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by Shonin »

We don't need to have attained '16 nanas' to know that Aristotle and Da Vinci were geniuses. Why would Buddha be different?
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Ben
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by Ben »

Shonin wrote:We don't need to have attained '16 nanas' to know that Aristotle and Da Vinci were geniuses. Why would Buddha be different?
Quite so, Shonin!
Nor do we need to have attained the 16 naanas to know the Buddha was a genius. Gombrich was able to come to the conclusion through his scholastic endeavours and we can do so through the development of experiential wisdom, even as mere putthujanas on the path.
kind regards

Ben
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rowyourboat
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by rowyourboat »

:smile: looks like I've raised a bit of a hornet's nest! I hope I have succeeded a little bit at least in those of you who might be resting on your current dhamma laurels. :stirthepot: I ask you what you must do to fit the description of the arya sangha- to be worthy of veneration ('anjalikaraneyyo'), to be worthy of gifts brought from afar ('aahuneyyo'), to be worthy of gifts given in seeking merit ('pahuneyyo'). What kind of practice would such a person have? - a bit of internet surfing perhaps?

Well, I'm going to leave it to you folks to think about Prof Gombrich. It is my belief that anyone who claims to know the dhamma and is a professor of the matter, should consider himself a buddhist; else he hasn't understood much. He may well be useful in clarifying history and other such matters, but perhaps not about the dhamma itself.
:anjali:

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by tiltbillings »

rowyourboat wrote::smile: looks like I've raised a bit of a hornet's nest! I hope I have succeeded a little bit at least in those of you who might be resting on your current dhamma laurels. :stirthepot: I ask you what you must do to fit the description of the arya sangha- to be worthy of veneration ('anjalikaraneyyo'), to be worthy of gifts brought from afar ('aahuneyyo'), to be worthy of gifts given in seeking merit ('pahuneyyo'). What kind of practice would such a person have? - a bit of internet surfing perhaps?

Well, I'm going to leave it to you folks to think about Prof Gombrich. It is my belief that anyone who claims to know the dhamma and is a professor of the matter, should consider himself a buddhist; else he hasn't understood much. He may well be useful in clarifying history and other such matters, but perhaps not about the dhamma itself.
:anjali:

with metta

RYB
Are you going to back up your claim: "Unless someone has gone the whole hog with vipassana (all 16 nanas) there is no way to know what a genius he is ?" Is this something you know from direct experience? If you have not directly experienced all the 16 ñānas, then you really do not know.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by alan »

A more interesting question might be: Why does Gombrich make such a fuss about Buddha being a "genius"?
Perhaps it is because he (Gombrich) is an academic, a non-meditator, and feels the need to place him (The Buddha) in an exemplary position against the well known and accepted great thinkers of history in order to make his points.
The book is a collection of speeches--perhaps he tailored his delivery to the audience?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:A more interesting question might be: Why does Gombrich make such a fuss about Buddha being a "genius"?
I am not sure he made a fuss, whatever that might mean. I suspect Gombrich's assessment has come from a careful study of the texts and their historical contexts.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by alan »

Why do you think he made that assessment?
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mikenz66
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:
alan wrote:A more interesting question might be: Why does Gombrich make such a fuss about Buddha being a "genius"?
I am not sure he made a fuss, whatever that might mean. I suspect Gombrich's assessment has come from a careful study of the texts and their historical contexts.
Yes, and it's in the context of other scholars claiming that the Buddha didn't exist as a person and the teachings we have are a group effort.

I think it's actually useful to have various people applying their particular expertise to the teachings and history. Prof Gombrich knows much more about some factors than any scholar monk or meditation master. He knows much less about some other factors... That's normal in any area of knowledge.

Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Why do you think he made that assessment?
Because that is what his studies lead him to believe?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by alan »

I haven't found any other books where the Buddha is called a genius, and compared with the great thinkers of Western philosophy. To establish that idea might be called a "fuss".
alan
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by alan »

That was a response, tilt, not an answer.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:I haven't found any other books where the Buddha is called a genius, and compared with the great thinkers of Western philosophy. To establish that idea might be called a "fuss".
It might be a fuss to you. You might want to look at Ven Narada's THE BUDDHA AND HIS TEACHING.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by alan »

Thanks for the link! I'm sure it will be good reading.
Just to the point though--what is your opinion on this?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Thanks for the link! I'm sure it will be good reading.
Just to the point though--what is your opinion on this?
Gombrich is a good scholar/historian and worth taking seriously concerning issues of historical interest. In terms of practice, I'd probably look elsewhere.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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