Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom
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Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Sekha » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:54 am

This thread is for those who wish to get rid of gross forms of desire such as sexual desire.

Nothing pleasant in it at all.

The Buddha used to praise the pratice of directing one's attention towards foul objects in order to overcome gross forms of craving. He advised to visit charnel grounds and to observe decomposing bodies, understanding: 'this will happen to this body also, and it can't escape it'. We generally don't have these grounds any more, but we have the internet.

In my experience, this technique is a very good way to overcome lust for material existence, especially sexual desire. I experimented it first at a time I was in such a struggle I had to be creative in my ways to fight. It happened like at some points my mind was overcome by the lust, after an effort I would get back to senses for a few seconds and then get overcome again etc. What I did was seizing a moment when I was back to senses and I made use of it to play this powerful asset: nibbida.

So I went on the internet and found lots of pictures inducing nibbida. I imagine it is far less impressive than a real charnel ground, but it is enough to calm down a storm. I want to share this with you because I have never read of anybody doing this and I find it very useful.

Below, you will find the kind of picture that will surely get your desire down:

CAUTION: these pictures show dead bodies in pretty bad conditions. Make sure this is what you're prepared to see before clicking on these links:
photo1 photo2 photo3 photo4

In my experience, the people who are interested in this kind of pictures on the internet are completely misguided. If you decide to engage in this, make sure you keep your mental sanity and don't read the comments people write.
Last edited by Sekha on Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Nibbida on the internet

Postby Sekha » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:06 am

Just wanted to add that if you are looking for actual renunciation from lust and experience difficulties with it, this tool, if used properly, will ensure your success.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Nibbida on the internet

Postby Ytrog » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:59 am

Thanks for the pics. I also have the desire to get rid of this. My method is a little different though: Whenever I feel lust I imagine the object of my lust decompose rapidly before my eyes. It works most of the time.

What is that pit from the last photo btw?
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: Nibbida on the internet

Postby bodom » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:57 pm

Hi Dukkhanirodha

See these threads as well...

Viewing images of Corpses online
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4885

Satipatthana contemplation of a corpse
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1259

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Nibbida on the internet

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:35 am

Moderator note: This thread was moved out of sight while its subject matter, particularly the links to the photos, could be considered. The thread is being restored as it originally was.

Non-moderator comment: In reference to the above linked photos in the OP, it is hard not to see these photos – in themselves - as a form of pornography. I would question why would anyone want to associate these photos with sex, even under the guise of supposedly quashing lust?

The classic body meditations/contemplations have their place within a context, but even then they have a potential of being very dangerous, which is why it is best to work with an experienced and balanced teacher. These photos push well beyond the classic framework. And one of the dangers of such photos is a desensitization to what is be shown and the association of such utterly gruesome photos with one’s feelings of sexuality does not strike me as a balanced basis for a healthy attitude towards sex.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:19 am

I think I'll stick with observing the rise and fall of phenomena for the eradication of the defilement of lust. I don't think I need to look at photos like that to generate samvega and nibbida.
kind regards

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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Reductor » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:00 am

Well now, that's quite something.

Perhaps I could suggest different tactics which have worked for me? First, sense restraint. If you don't stop to dwell on a woman (or man) you'll find that feelings of pleasure, and the craving that goes with it, are much less intense. If you practice restraint consistently you will find that it alone subdues most of the causes which lead to full blown sexual lust.

Second, I would suggest the 32 parts contemplation, which I do on live people who are fully clothed (when my wife is shopping, I sit in the car - me no like shoppee). Breath a little bit and keep the breath in mind while looking. When you notice your mind crawling with pleasure and craving, pull back for a moment, then return to the person and contemplate (eg, visualize if you can) where in the body a particular part is. Can you recognize that their body contains that part? It need only be one.

The goal here is recognition that their body has many more features than just those that please you. If fact, their body has many more features than you are even cognizant of in the first place, because the first perception of beauty has totally subordinated your perceptual process to accomplish its work (of building on that first feature). The best results come from frequent application of this method. But this method is subordinate to the first, as the first requires only determination while this requires a practiced finesse (it is easy to get carried away by that first pleasure trip).

As for these pics, it reminds me of a something Dhammika wrote in "The Broken Buddha":
I once sat and listened as a group of young Thai monks roared with laughter and made ribald comments about a collection of particularly nauseating photos of female corpses that they were passing around to each other.


Not exactly the results one hopes for.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:12 am

thereductor wrote:As for these pics, it reminds me of a something Dhammika wrote in "The Broken Buddha":
I once sat and listened as a group of young Thai monks roared with laughter and made ribald comments about a collection of particularly nauseating photos of female corpses that they were passing around to each other.


Not exactly the results one hopes for.


Gallows humour, I imagine. For a little while many years ago I worked for a funeral director. In the three months of my employment I got to be very 'hands on' with all aspects of the operational side of the business from collecting the deceased, attending funerals right through to dressing and making up bodies for a 'viewing'. It was at times quite confronting and the deceased were treated as though they were still alive and afforded dignity and respect. One of the ways that many people in that industry deal with the discomfort is to be humorous about it. Where I worked was no exception.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Reductor » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:30 am

Ben wrote:... One of the ways that many people in that industry deal with the discomfort is to be humorous about it. Where I worked was no exception.
kind regards

Ben


No doubt.

Paramedics have pretty dark humor about things, and as a senior paramedic said: this is how we deal with it. Of course, paramedics usually have short careers (a lot of burn out), so perhaps a better method should be found. Although I admit to laughing at my instructors very dark anecdotes, I sure don't want to be mister-grim-funny-face.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Sekha » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:01 am

Different tempers, different ways of practices, different techniques.

It might be useful to some.

Personnaly, I meditate quite a load, which makes deep complexes come on the surface and can generate big storms sometimes, all the more that these days I am in the midst of the city and I get much more 'crazy attacks' from Mara.


Being humourous about these things is developping wrong perception of them. People do that because they are not trained to bear bare reality. This is harmful to them.

tiltbillings wrote: In reference to the above linked photos in the OP, it is hard not to see these photos – in themselves - as a form of pornography. I would question why would anyone want to associate these photos with sex, even under the guise of supposedly quashing lust?

Actually, the link between the perception of foul objects and the abandonment lust lies deep in the "unconscious" mind. It had been stated by the Buddha, and it works. That's all what is important here.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:44 am

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: In reference to the above linked photos in the OP, it is hard not to see these photos – in themselves - as a form of pornography. I would question why would anyone want to associate these photos with sex, even under the guise of supposedly quashing lust?

Actually, the link between the perception of foul objects and the abandonment lust lies deep in the "unconscious" mind. It had been stated by the Buddha, and it works. That's all what is important here.
If it were only that simple.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:33 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:It had been stated by the Buddha
I like to read around subjects to deepen my knowledge. Would you mind posting a reference to this for me to read? :)

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Ytrog » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:02 pm

If these photo's aren't any good for nibbida then what's the big difference with going to watch a dead body at the funeral grounds? :?
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby Sekha » Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:57 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:It had been stated by the Buddha
I like to read around subjects to deepen my knowledge. Would you mind posting a reference to this for me to read? :)


AN 1.16:
No other thing do I know, O monks, on account of which unarisen sensual desire does not arise and arisen sensual is abandoned so much as on account of this: a foul object. For one who attends properly to a foul object, unarisen sensual desire does not arise and arisen sensual desire is abandoned.


"Now, what is lack of food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen? There is the theme of unattractiveness. To foster appropriate attention to it: This is lack of food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Again, monks, a monk, when he sees a dead body that has been thrown in a charnel-ground, dead for one, two or three days, swollen, blue and festering, regarding his own body considers thus: "Indeed, this body is of the same nature, it will become like that and cannot escape it."
(...)
Again, monks, a monk, when he sees a dead body that has been thrown in a charnel-ground, being eaten by crows, being eaten by vultures, being eaten by falcons, being eaten by herons, being eaten by dogs, being eaten by tigers, being eaten by leopards, being eaten by jackals and being eaten by different kinds of creatures, regarding his own body considers thus: "Indeed, this body is of the same nature, it will become like that and cannot escape it."
(...)
Again, monks, a monk, when he sees a dead body that has been thrown in a charnel-ground, the bones having rotted away to powder, regarding his own body considers thus: "Indeed, this body is of the same nature, it will become like that and cannot escape it."
http://www.tipitaka.org/stp-pali-eng-series#32

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:21 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:. . . [quoting from the texts] . . .
And these "body" contemplations are simply the most dangerous practices the Buddha put out there:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html They are quite capable of generating unhealthy and unwholesome and dangerous states of mind.

Looking at that type violent pornography as illustrated in the above linked photos would be a sexual turn-off just like a dog fart would be, which points to a need of working with an experienced and balanced who teacher who can put the body contemplations into an appropriate broader context and who can look out for one's states of mind associated these practices. One of the dangers in the use of such photos is that they lead, not to insight, but to repression of feelings, a ham-handed pushing down of feelings, leaving us with the sense that we are in control of these feelings, and there is enough evidence in teachers and other practitioners who have not dealt with their sexuality in a healthy way to see where that leads. And let us not forget that trips down the garden-path are most often self guided.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby bodom » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:06 pm

Bodhi's explanation of this contemplation and its undertaking has been helpful to my personal practice.

*Due to character limitations on my browser I will need to make several posts.

The first, the meditation on unattractiveness, is designed to counter infatuation with the body, especially in its form of sexual desire. The Buddha teaches that the sexual drive is a manifestation of craving, thus a cause of dukkha that has to be reduced and extricated as a precondition for bringing dukkha to an end. The meditation aims at weakening sexual desire by depriving the sexual urge of its cognitive underpinning, the perception of the body as sensually alluring. Sensual desire rises and falls together with this perception. It springs up because we view the body as attractive; it declines when this perception of beauty is removed. The perception of bodily attractiveness in turn lasts only so long as the body is looked at superficially, grasped in terms of selected impressions.


continued below..
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby bodom » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:10 pm

To counter that perception we have to refuse to stop with these impressions but proceed to inspect the body at a deeper level, with a probing scrutiny grounded in dispassion. Precisely this is what is undertaken in the meditation on unattractiveness, which turns back the tide of sensuality by pulling away its perceptual prop. The meditation takes one's own body as object, since for a neophyte to start off with the body of another, especially a member of the opposite sex, might fail to accomplish the desired result. Using visualization as an aid, one mentally dissects the body into its components and investigates them one by one, bringing their repulsive nature to light.


continued below..
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby bodom » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:11 pm

The texts mention thirty-two parts: head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, stomach contents, excrement, brain, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, snot, spittle, sinovial fluid, and urine. The repulsiveness of the parts implies the same for the whole: the body seen closeup is truly unattractive, its beautiful appearance a mirage. But the aim of this meditation must not be misapprehended. The aim is not to produce aversion and disgust but detachment, to extinguish the fire of lust by removing its fuel


continued below..
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby bodom » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:14 pm

The last exercise in mindfulness of the body is a series of "cemetery meditations," contemplations of the body's disintegration after death, which may be performed either imaginatively, with the aid of pictures, or through direct confrontation with a corpse. By any of these means one obtains a clear mental image of a decomposing body, then applies the process to one's own body, considering: "This body, now so full of life, has the same nature and is subject to the same fate. It cannot escape death, cannot escape disintegration, but must eventually die and decompose."Again, the purpose of this meditation should not be misunderstood. The aim is not to indulge in a morbid fascination with death and corpses, but to sunder our egoistic clinging to existence with a contemplation sufficiently powerful to break its hold. The clinging to existence subsists through the implicit assumption of permanence. In the sight of a corpse we meet the teacher who proclaims "Everything formed is impermanent."
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Nibbida on the internet [Warning: links to graphic content]

Postby bodom » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:24 pm

So in short, this practice is not for everyone. If it is to be undertaken, it should be done responsibly and under the guidance of a qualified teacher and done only for the purpose of producing dispassion and never aversion.

Bodhi's essay can be found here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... d.html#ch6

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah


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