Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

mikenz66 wrote:Does anyone who has spent any time with real teachers seriously believe that they are all that confused?

Hi Mike,


it's not, that anyone is confused.

The mistake of non-relaxing the tensions arisen from craving
after letting go of the distraction and returning to the object of meditation
can lead you into very deep concentrated states which can be very pleasant.
But no hindrances and nothing at all shows up into mind in that states
so one won't learn how mind actually works.

Simply:
Without relaxing the tension and tightness in body and mind after letting go of the distraction
you can reach deep meditative states without knowing that they are the wrong ones.

The Buddha had been at those with his first two meditation teacher teaching him brahmin meditation.
And he dismissed that being non-sufficient.


Be Well ツ Mirco

mirco wrote: Simply:
Without relaxing the tension and tightness in body and mind after letting go of the distraction
you can reach deep meditative states without knowing that they are the wrong ones.

One can take tranquillizers and become super relaxed without any tension or tightness. But that doesn't make one become Awakened.

Neither can bare (as in: thoughtless & conceptless) observation produce wisdom. Worms are not awakened, even though they can't think or form wrong concepts.

I believe in wisdom that uproots all craving (and whatever stands behind it and whatever it manifests as).

mirco wrote:

mikenz66 wrote:Does anyone who has spent any time with real teachers seriously believe that they are all that confused?

Hi Mike,

it's not, that anyone is confused.

Good to hear it. So why then do some teachers, and even some students, insist that only they know how to practise correctly? See my comment here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 31#p119031" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for an expansion why I don't take comments to that effect by Bhante Vimalaramsi (or anyone else) too seriously.


Mike

Alex123 wrote:

mirco wrote:Simply: Without relaxing the tension and tightness in body and mind after letting go of the distraction
you can reach deep meditative states without knowing that they are the wrong ones.

One can take tranquillizers and become super relaxed without any tension or tightness. But that doesn't make one become Awakened.
Neither can bare (as in: thoughtless & conceptless) observation produce wisdom. Worms are not awakened, even though they can't think or form wrong concepts.

Hi Alex,

but we are talking about Buddhist meditation. And that is to stay with your attention with the object of meditation.
Not about taking drugs.

Be Well ツ Mirco

mikenz66 wrote:

mirco wrote:

mikenz66 wrote:Does anyone who has spent any time with real teachers seriously believe that they are all that confused?

Hi Mike, it's not, that anyone is confused.

Good to hear it. So why then do some teachers, and even some students, insist that only they know how to practise correctly? See my comment here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 31#p119031" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for an expansion why I don't take comments to that effect by Bhante Vimalaramsi (or anyone else) too seriously.

Hi Mike,

why do they insist? Maybe, because they do not know any better?

Be well ツ Mirco

mirco wrote:

adeh wrote:It's interesting to take into account that Bhante Vimalaramsi's Abhidhamma teacher-and preceptor I think, but don't quote me on that-was the Ven. Sayadaw Silananda, a well known Bhikkhu who had a problem with his blood pressure and only recently passed away in 2005. The centre of his teaching was actually the Visuddhimagga, and he gave many courses and discourses based on the same. I have been told that every time Ven. Vimalaramsi turned up and started explaining his theories about Buddhaghosa, the Venerable Sayadaws blood pressure went through the roof.

Hi,

yes, and after giving him his book the first time to review it, the Venerable Silananda said that everything is completely right with his method. So the Venerable Vimalaramsi asked, why he doesn't teach that to his students. The reply was, that he has been teaching such long time his way, the incorrect way, that he won't change anymore. That was all. ^^

Best Regards ツ Mirco

And can you give us a reference of this convenient story?, specially the part when Venerable U Silananda says that the method he has been teaching (the Mahasi method) is the incorrect way.

vidar wrote:

mirco wrote:yes, and after giving him his book the first time to review it, the Venerable Silananda said that everything is completely right with his method. So the Venerable Vimalaramsi asked, why he doesn't teach that to his students. The reply was, that he has been teaching such long time his way, the incorrect way, that he won't change anymore. That was all. ^^ Best Regards ツ Mirco

And can you give us a reference of this convenient story?, specially the part when Venerable U Silananda says that the method he has been teaching (the Mahasi method) is the incorrect way.

Hi Vidar,


no, I can't. The Venerable Vimalaramsi himself was telling this story. It can be found somewhere in the talk archives, I believe.
Ask him, if you like: here


Thank You & Be Well ツ Mirco

vidar wrote:

mirco wrote:

adeh wrote:It's interesting to take into account that Bhante Vimalaramsi's Abhidhamma teacher-and preceptor I think, but don't quote me on that-was the Ven. Sayadaw Silananda, a well known Bhikkhu who had a problem with his blood pressure and only recently passed away in 2005. The centre of his teaching was actually the Visuddhimagga, and he gave many courses and discourses based on the same. I have been told that every time Ven. Vimalaramsi turned up and started explaining his theories about Buddhaghosa, the Venerable Sayadaws blood pressure went through the roof.

Hi,

yes, and after giving him his book the first time to review it, the Venerable Silananda said that everything is completely right with his method. So the Venerable Vimalaramsi asked, why he doesn't teach that to his students. The reply was, that he has been teaching such long time his way, the incorrect way, that he won't change anymore. That was all. ^^

Best Regards ツ Mirco

And can you give us a reference of this convenient story?, specially the part when Venerable U Silananda says that the method he has been teaching (the Mahasi method) is the incorrect way.

This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.

vidar wrote:

mirco wrote:

adeh wrote:It's interesting to take into account that Bhante Vimalaramsi's Abhidhamma teacher-and preceptor I think, but don't quote me on that-was the Ven. Sayadaw Silananda, a well known Bhikkhu who had a problem with his blood pressure and only recently passed away in 2005. The centre of his teaching was actually the Visuddhimagga, and he gave many courses and discourses based on the same. I have been told that every time Ven. Vimalaramsi turned up and started explaining his theories about Buddhaghosa, the Venerable Sayadaws blood pressure went through the roof.

Hi,

yes, and after giving him his book the first time to review it, the Venerable Silananda said that everything is completely right with his method. So the Venerable Vimalaramsi asked, why he doesn't teach that to his students. The reply was, that he has been teaching such long time his way, the incorrect way, that he won't change anymore. That was all. ^^

Best Regards ツ Mirco

I never met the Ven. Sayadaw but from what I have heard about him from many people I know here and in the U.S. who did know him personally, I would have to say that I seriously doubt the truth of this story.

This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.

Certainly these are nonsense stories

vidar wrote:

This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.

Certainly these are nonsense stories

Dhamma Greetings,


Hmmm. What I don't understand is, why should he consciously tell the untruth.
I mean, he had been a Kappiya to Sayadaw Silananda for two years and should know him quite well since that.
Do you really think, this Buddhist monk is a liar?


Be Well, Mirco

mirco wrote:

vidar wrote:

This story is as believable as Vimalaramsi's above accounting of Buddhaghosa.

Certainly these are nonsense stories

Dhamma Greetings,


Hmmm. What I don't understand is, why should he consciously tell the untruth.
I mean, he had been a Kappiya to Sayadaw Silananda for two years and should know him quite well since that.
Do you really think, this Buddhist monk is a liar?


Be Well, Mirco

Good question. Why would he so obviously distort the Buddhaghosa story?

Ven. Vimalaramsi made a brief appearance at Dhamma Study Group about 6 years ago before quickly slipping away again when he didn't find a reverential audience. Judging from the things he wrote then about meditation that even this beginner could see were not in line with the Buddha's teaching (for example, going through the body to find all points of tension/pain and healing them to have pleasant feeling, which is a nice and probably even effective idea for yoga or some kind of new age therapy but is not Buddhist meditation) it is hard to believe that anything he puts out in the world is not chock full of enough dubious points to make it impossible for a venerable such as Sayadaw U Silananda to accept them, just out of the question. And the video where he claims he can cure AIDS is enough evidence to dismiss that comment, isn't it? On the other hand, maybe Sayadaw U Silananda had enough equanimity to understand that the best way to get rid of the misguided venerable badgering him was to give him a compliment to get him out the door, but unlikely I guess...

BTW, speaking of Sayadaw U Silananda, if anyone would like a great source for Pali study, his bilingual recitation of the parittas is fantastic.

http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scan down for "paritta chanting, Burmese style."

phil wrote:Ven. Vimalaramsi made a brief appearance at Dhamma Study Group about 6 years ago before quickly slipping away again when he didn't find a reverential audience. Judging from the things he wrote then about meditation that even this beginner could see were not in line with the Buddha's teaching (for example, going through the body to find all points of tension/pain and healing them to have pleasant feeling, which is a nice and probably even effective idea for yoga or some kind of new age therapy but is not Buddhist meditation) it is hard to believe that anything he puts out in the world is not chock full of enough dubious points to make it impossible for a venerable such as Sayadaw U Silananda to accept them, just out of the question......................

......."

I came across the following "new age therapy" .................

'He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


and...............

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#bathman