Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby legallybuddhist » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:05 pm

I'm trying to get in contact with other Buddhist legal practitioners in the UK - we seem to be a rare breed! If you are or know anyone (law student, paralegal, trainee, solicitor, barrister, ILEX etc) can you please PM me?

I'm trying to get some sort of network or discussion going about integration of the dhamma into legal practice, and perspectives on the law from a Buddhist/Buddhist ethics perspective. Indeed there can even be scope for discussion as to whether practicing law is "Right Livelihood".

Any suggestions or tips would be great!

Thanks,

LB
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:46 am

Dear legallybuddhist,

analyze "right" speech (don't lie) exactly.
As for better justice you would need to integrate motivation/intention into the measurement. But who would accept justice without victim and aggressor, right and wrong. Mediation, I guess is a better tool. It would bring solutions, but what if one just likes to win?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:56 am

Greetings legallybuddhist

My father was a QC and my older brother a Barrister. Both passed away some time ago - though not as a result of their profession!
All the very best in your endeavours in forming a network of Buddhist silks! I think its a fantastic idea, and i hope to hear from you in the future - anecdotes of how the Dhamma has assisted you in your professional life.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:20 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear legallybuddhist,

analyze "right" speech (don't lie) exactly.
As for better justice you would need to integrate motivation/intention into the measurement. But who would accept justice without victim and aggressor, right and wrong. Mediation, I guess is a better tool. It would bring solutions, but what if one just likes to win?
I don't think he came here for your very strange mini-lecture on what you seem not to understand at all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby alan » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:44 am

Hanzze lives in a country with no legal structure.
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:45 am

alan wrote:Hanzze lives in a country with no legal structure.
Yes; however, he grew up in Germany, which has a very good legal structure.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:
alan wrote:Hanzze lives in a country with no legal structure.
Yes; however, he grew up in Germany, which has a very good legal structure.

Who tells you that I grow up in Germany and what makes a legal structure good? A mass of legal conflicts, tons of laws, thousands of lawyer and the lust of struggle even when you by a pack of chewing gum, 20% budged for contracts and legal issues? Well it is a big business... The wheel of dhamma turns in the other direction, if it is still on to turn. The more simple the better. But indeed, I don't think that anybody is searching for devices which let us walk in a direction of the Dhamma, so it is better to modify the Dhamma where we like to have it. Then maybe in the future we can swear on the Dhammapada, maybe on Vers 50

In any way, mediation is what the Buddha did and the will to mediation begins when we realize that our legal systems have there limits. Mediation is indeed a trend and is used in many sectors whit a lot of success.
But it needs the will from each side to look forward.

Maybe it is useful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediation
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:25 am

Hanzze wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
alan wrote:Hanzze lives in a country with no legal structure.
Yes; however, he grew up in Germany, which has a very good legal structure.

Who tells you that I grow up in Germany
You did, and as for all the rest, you are in no place to lecture any lawyer here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:You did, and as for all the rest, you are in no place to lecture any lawyer here.

What ever you believe and judge.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:07 am

Hanzze wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You did, and as for all the rest, you are in no place to lecture any lawyer here.

What ever you believe and judge.
It is pretty much what you demonstrate.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:26 am

So, the folk religion and pidgin English and apparent identification with all things Kymer and Hannze isnt even Cambodian ?........ :rofl:
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:37 am

Anyway, just returning to topic...
I think its interesting that the Buddha founded the oldest continuously operating legal system (the vinaya) and institution (the sangha) in the world. How about that?

I think there's great opportunity for sincere practitioners of the Dhamma who are in the legal profession to utilise their knowledge and understanding of the Dhamma in their professional lives for the benefit of themselves, their clients and their communities. I only wish my older brother and my father had contact with the Dhamma - and for that matter, all my family.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:45 am

I have a sister-in-law who at one time posted regularly on E Sangha who is a Buddhist and criminal Lawyer.

I am afraid that her experience on E Sangha has caused her to place several bargepoles between herself and online Buddhist forums however.

But they certainly exist..
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:58 am

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:I am afraid that her experience on E Sangha has caused her to place several bargepoles between herself and online Buddhist forums however.

No doubt, a reaction that e-Sangha had on all too many.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:43 am

Ben wrote:Anyway, just returning to topic...
I think its interesting that the Buddha founded the oldest continuously operating legal system (the vinaya) and institution (the sangha) in the world. How about that?

I think there's great opportunity for sincere practitioners of the Dhamma who are in the legal profession to utilise their knowledge and understanding of the Dhamma in their professional lives for the benefit of themselves, their clients and their communities. I only wish my older brother and my father had contact with the Dhamma - and for that matter, all my family.
kind regards

Ben

Dear Ben,

I know, all of you will be disappointed again, but I like to reject that an enlightened being would ever found a legal system. There is pretty much, what Dhamma practicing people can do for mediation and conflict solutions, but that is not the original job as a lawyer.
Actually a lawyer a little similar to a solider. There are "good" soldiers and maybe bad soldiers, but there will always hired to win a battle. It will last a struggle, even with a very high moral thought.

As you, I also wish all lawyers to come in contact with the Dhamma. It would change a lot. Once I had a very open minded lawyer we never talked much but there was never a problem, we loose our battle but we could look each other into the eyes as two who had won.
Please don't try to modify the Dhamma.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:48 am

Greetings Hanzze,

I find your comments odd, when the Buddha dispensed the patimokkha (Vinaya rules) and the means for their correct enforcement.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Hanzze,

I find your comments odd, when the Buddha dispensed the patimokkha (Vinaya rules) and the means for their correct enforcement.

Metta,
Retro. :)
You very naughty human being suggesting that the Buddha would have anything to do with {{{gasp}}} enforcement of any sort.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby BlackBird » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:16 pm

Pretty sure that the Vinaya is a legal system. I'm also pretty sure there are a lot of ethically minded lawyers out there who put their morality before any legal dispute. I am finally, pretty sure that lawyers are not included under the Buddha's list of wrong livelihoods.

Soldiers are trained to kill.
Lawyers are trained to argue.
The comparison doesn't stack up.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:57 pm

BlackBird wrote:Pretty sure that the Vinaya is a legal system. I'm also pretty sure there are a lot of ethically minded lawyers out there who put their morality before any legal dispute. I am finally, pretty sure that lawyers are not included under the Buddha's list of wrong livelihoods.

Soldiers are trained to kill.
Lawyers are trained to argue.
The comparison doesn't stack up.

:smile:
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Any Buddhist lawyers out there (UK)?

Postby legallybuddhist » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:05 pm

I'm meeting a partner in a firm this evening to discuss getting this network up and running. I anticipate an enjoyable dhamma discussion will follow on matters such as those you have raised above. Many thanks indeed for the responses so far.

No doubt I'll be posting some points I'll be grateful for input and consideration on in the near future.

With metta,

LB
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