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Dhamma Wheel • View topic - Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:28 pm

Colin Donoghue wrote:Buddhism has become very corrupted by false teachings, to such an extent that many of those thinking they are defending true Buddhism are actually doing the opposite. I'm not familiar with the details of this Dhammakaya incident, but I am familiar with the Buddha's true teachings, which most of you apparently are not. More clarification here: https://sites.google.com/a/veganmail.co ... rstanding/


This thread is about a certain religious organisation replacing the teaching of "anatta" with "atta", ie not-self with self. Most people around here are well aware that the Buddhas teaching is that the 5 aggregates are not-self.

A quick skim through this thread and I could not find the post that you've objected to, would you kindly point out which post(s) you think deviate from the Buddhas teaching so that it can be discussed.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Sokehi » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:29 pm

Colin Donoghue wrote:The main point however is that to hold any metaphysical view about Self while still unenlightened (i.e. before realizing the full truth of it for oneself) is a form of delusion (one of the 3 Posions that keep us in Samsaric patterns of existence), and is not at all helpful toward acheiving liberation, which is why the Buddha in other Sutras remained silent when asked directly about the nature of Self.


So at one time a certain belief is poisonous and at another time after attaining enlightenment the same belief suddenly is the truth?
Last edited by Sokehi on Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:

So anyway, what do you think are the Buddha's true teachings?
Take a look at his linked blog thingie.

Ah, yes. I'll read and respond to that later when I have time.

Toodles for now!
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:53 pm

The final paragraph in Colin's paper:
Colin Donoghue wrote:I am in full agreement with the statements that our Buddha-Nature/Self is clearly not just the Five Aggregates, and that we should get to the real work of Buddhist practice and discard all distractions and distortions that hamper our progress on the path to gaining full insight/enlightenment, alleviating our own suffering and the suffering of all other beings; but the belief in absolute no-self clearly is an assumption made by later monks and scholars. Let us leave speculation and assumption behind and focus on the path to liberation, namely the Eightfold Path, and let us not skip the first step of Right View/Understanding, by claiming understanding of metaphysical truths that we honestly have no authority to maintain. Why can’t we be satisfied with the Buddha’s first sermon of the Four Noble Truths? Is that not enough for a lifetime of study and practice? Let’s take the Buddha's advice and not make assumptions about the full understanding of Self, so that we may be unheeded by wrong view in our progress toward enlightenment. For when we do achieve enlightenment then we will really understand the mystery of the Self, as well as why it is best to leave this mystery unexpressed to those that cannot fully understand or benefit from it.

The first sermon says that what's to be fully understood is suffering, its origin is to be abandoned, its cessation is to be realized, and the way to its cessation is to be developed (SN 56.11). You say we should be satisfied with this yet it seems like you're not satisfied as the gist of your paper was about "Self".

It also seems you are claiming the understanding of a metaphysical truth in asserting that there is Buddha-Nature/Self and claiming that enlightenment is about understanding the "mystery of the Self". And at the same time you say we should not make assumptions.

I see mixed messages here, that's all.

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Take a look at his linked blog thingie.


So he's spamming his own blog.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Colin Donoghue » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:35 am

I figured there would be replies to my contribution being more examples of lies, irrationality and immorality (the toxic trio of Mara), like this one: "It also seems you are claiming the understanding of a metaphysical truth in asserting that there is Buddha-Nature/Self." I clearly say the exact opposite in my essay, I specifically say that I am not making such a claim; your comment on "spamming" is another toxic statement. Also in reply to another comment, the dominant view among Buddhists today is clearly a view of Absolute No-Self (I don't need to bother with multiple references to that idea made in this thread and elsewhere), which the Buddha absolutely did not teach, this being my main point which I'm sure will continue to be avoided, as is typical of those who have no awareness of the quality of thoughts arising in their minds which they choose to follow. The other reply about holding an unverified belief compared to Truth verified by life-experience (which is therefore no longer an unenlightened belief), shows confusion of terms and again that the main point I clearly made previously, and that I make in my essay, wasn't at all acknowledged (i.e. irrational diversion). Forgive me for stating more "general insults," I am actually just pointing to crucial truths that need to be understood in order for there to be progress on the Path.

Take care all, I'll leave you with these relevant words of the Buddha:

""Speaking in this way, teaching in this way, I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by some brahmans and contemplatives [who say], ‘Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.’ But as I am not that, as I do not say that, so I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by those venerable brahmans and contemplatives [who say], ‘Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.’" (Alagaddupama Sutta)

Arahang Samma Sambuddho Bhagava Buddhang Bhagavantang Abhivademi

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:51 am

Colin Donoghue wrote:I figured there would be replies to my contribution being more examples of lies, irrationality and immorality (the toxic trio of Mara), like this one: "It also seems you are claiming the understanding of a metaphysical truth in asserting that there is Buddha-Nature/Self." I clearly say the exact opposite in my essay, I specifically say that I am not making such a claim; your comment on "spamming" is another toxic statement. Also in reply to another comment, the dominant view among Buddhists today is clearly a view of Absolute No-Self (I don't need to bother with multiple references to that idea made in this thread and elsewhere), which the Buddha absolutely did not teach, this being my main point which I'm sure will continue to be avoided, as is typical of those who have no awareness of the quality of thoughts arising in their minds which they choose to follow. The other reply about holding an unverified belief compared to Truth verified by life-experience (which is therefore no longer an unenlightened belief), shows confusion of terms and again that the main point I clearly made previously, and that I make in my essay, wasn't at all acknowledged (i.e. irrational diversion). Forgive me for stating more "general insults," I am actually just pointing to crucial truths that need to be understood in order for there to be progress on the Path.

Uhm, no. You were insulting in your first post and and you're downright venomous in your second. I already quoted you contradicting yourself in your concluding paragraph and pointed out the contradiction; like I said, you're sending mixed messages. But clearly you're convinced you're not and who am I to convince you otherwise?

Bye now.

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:24 am

Colin Donoghue wrote:I don't need to bother with multiple references to that idea made in this thread and elsewhere


Umm, yes you do, otherwise you're not having a discussion rather just using this site as a pulpit/blog not a discussion forum.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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