Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

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Goofaholix
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:28 pm

Colin Donoghue wrote:Buddhism has become very corrupted by false teachings, to such an extent that many of those thinking they are defending true Buddhism are actually doing the opposite. I'm not familiar with the details of this Dhammakaya incident, but I am familiar with the Buddha's true teachings, which most of you apparently are not. More clarification here: https://sites.google.com/a/veganmail.co ... rstanding/


This thread is about a certain religious organisation replacing the teaching of "anatta" with "atta", ie not-self with self. Most people around here are well aware that the Buddhas teaching is that the 5 aggregates are not-self.

A quick skim through this thread and I could not find the post that you've objected to, would you kindly point out which post(s) you think deviate from the Buddhas teaching so that it can be discussed.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Sokehi » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:29 pm

Colin Donoghue wrote:The main point however is that to hold any metaphysical view about Self while still unenlightened (i.e. before realizing the full truth of it for oneself) is a form of delusion (one of the 3 Posions that keep us in Samsaric patterns of existence), and is not at all helpful toward acheiving liberation, which is why the Buddha in other Sutras remained silent when asked directly about the nature of Self.


So at one time a certain belief is poisonous and at another time after attaining enlightenment the same belief suddenly is the truth?
Last edited by Sokehi on Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:

So anyway, what do you think are the Buddha's true teachings?
Take a look at his linked blog thingie.

Ah, yes. I'll read and respond to that later when I have time.

Toodles for now!
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

Courage can only be cultivated in the face of fear.

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:53 pm

The final paragraph in Colin's paper:
Colin Donoghue wrote:I am in full agreement with the statements that our Buddha-Nature/Self is clearly not just the Five Aggregates, and that we should get to the real work of Buddhist practice and discard all distractions and distortions that hamper our progress on the path to gaining full insight/enlightenment, alleviating our own suffering and the suffering of all other beings; but the belief in absolute no-self clearly is an assumption made by later monks and scholars. Let us leave speculation and assumption behind and focus on the path to liberation, namely the Eightfold Path, and let us not skip the first step of Right View/Understanding, by claiming understanding of metaphysical truths that we honestly have no authority to maintain. Why can’t we be satisfied with the Buddha’s first sermon of the Four Noble Truths? Is that not enough for a lifetime of study and practice? Let’s take the Buddha's advice and not make assumptions about the full understanding of Self, so that we may be unheeded by wrong view in our progress toward enlightenment. For when we do achieve enlightenment then we will really understand the mystery of the Self, as well as why it is best to leave this mystery unexpressed to those that cannot fully understand or benefit from it.

The first sermon says that what's to be fully understood is suffering, its origin is to be abandoned, its cessation is to be realized, and the way to its cessation is to be developed (SN 56.11). You say we should be satisfied with this yet it seems like you're not satisfied as the gist of your paper was about "Self".

It also seems you are claiming the understanding of a metaphysical truth in asserting that there is Buddha-Nature/Self and claiming that enlightenment is about understanding the "mystery of the Self". And at the same time you say we should not make assumptions.

I see mixed messages here, that's all.

:thinking:
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

Courage can only be cultivated in the face of fear.

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Take a look at his linked blog thingie.


So he's spamming his own blog.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Colin Donoghue » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:35 am

I figured there would be replies to my contribution being more examples of lies, irrationality and immorality (the toxic trio of Mara), like this one: "It also seems you are claiming the understanding of a metaphysical truth in asserting that there is Buddha-Nature/Self." I clearly say the exact opposite in my essay, I specifically say that I am not making such a claim; your comment on "spamming" is another toxic statement. Also in reply to another comment, the dominant view among Buddhists today is clearly a view of Absolute No-Self (I don't need to bother with multiple references to that idea made in this thread and elsewhere), which the Buddha absolutely did not teach, this being my main point which I'm sure will continue to be avoided, as is typical of those who have no awareness of the quality of thoughts arising in their minds which they choose to follow. The other reply about holding an unverified belief compared to Truth verified by life-experience (which is therefore no longer an unenlightened belief), shows confusion of terms and again that the main point I clearly made previously, and that I make in my essay, wasn't at all acknowledged (i.e. irrational diversion). Forgive me for stating more "general insults," I am actually just pointing to crucial truths that need to be understood in order for there to be progress on the Path.

Take care all, I'll leave you with these relevant words of the Buddha:

""Speaking in this way, teaching in this way, I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by some brahmans and contemplatives [who say], ‘Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.’ But as I am not that, as I do not say that, so I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by those venerable brahmans and contemplatives [who say], ‘Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.’" (Alagaddupama Sutta)

Arahang Samma Sambuddho Bhagava Buddhang Bhagavantang Abhivademi

- Colin D.

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:51 am

Colin Donoghue wrote:I figured there would be replies to my contribution being more examples of lies, irrationality and immorality (the toxic trio of Mara), like this one: "It also seems you are claiming the understanding of a metaphysical truth in asserting that there is Buddha-Nature/Self." I clearly say the exact opposite in my essay, I specifically say that I am not making such a claim; your comment on "spamming" is another toxic statement. Also in reply to another comment, the dominant view among Buddhists today is clearly a view of Absolute No-Self (I don't need to bother with multiple references to that idea made in this thread and elsewhere), which the Buddha absolutely did not teach, this being my main point which I'm sure will continue to be avoided, as is typical of those who have no awareness of the quality of thoughts arising in their minds which they choose to follow. The other reply about holding an unverified belief compared to Truth verified by life-experience (which is therefore no longer an unenlightened belief), shows confusion of terms and again that the main point I clearly made previously, and that I make in my essay, wasn't at all acknowledged (i.e. irrational diversion). Forgive me for stating more "general insults," I am actually just pointing to crucial truths that need to be understood in order for there to be progress on the Path.

Uhm, no. You were insulting in your first post and and you're downright venomous in your second. I already quoted you contradicting yourself in your concluding paragraph and pointed out the contradiction; like I said, you're sending mixed messages. But clearly you're convinced you're not and who am I to convince you otherwise?

Bye now.

:hello:
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

Courage can only be cultivated in the face of fear.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipita

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:24 am

Colin Donoghue wrote:I don't need to bother with multiple references to that idea made in this thread and elsewhere


Umm, yes you do, otherwise you're not having a discussion rather just using this site as a pulpit/blog not a discussion forum.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby Deepi » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:45 pm

gavesako wrote:
Apparently they hired the foreign scholars and gave them salary of 15 thousand baht per month to replace e.g. "anicca dukkha anatta" with "anicca dukkha atta".


Yes they hired the foreign scholars from Myanmar, Srilanka, Cambodia, also,...... but not to replace "anicca dukkha anatta" with "anicca dukkha atta"....
But to help them translate palm leaf manuscripts of Tripitaka... form all countries so they can understand and let all understand the perfect teachings of the Buddha... because every country have their own Tripitaka in their own language... so Dhammakaya hired foreign scholars to work together as a team and compare the Tripitaka from all over the world.

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby paul » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:56 am

so Dhammakaya hired foreign scholars to work together as a team and compare the Tripitaka from all over the world.

But doesn't Dhammakaya itself mean the mental body or 'self' that is supposedly produced by meditation, as in this image associated with the sect?
http://www.dhammakaya.net/wp-content/up ... budda2.jpg

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Re: Dhammakaya replaces "anatta" with "atta" in their Tipitaka!

Postby dhammarelax » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:32 pm

AN Book of sevens:

18.8. Anattānupassīsuttaṃ - Reflecting the lack of a self

002.08. Bhikkhus, these seven persons worthy of offerings, hospitality, gifts, to be worshipped with clasped hands, the incomparable field of merit for the world are evident What seven?

Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides reflecting the lack of a self in all things. Experiencing the perception of lacking a self, constantly, without an interruption, with a mind inclined to see wisely with penetrating insight. Destroying desires, ... re ... realizing he abides. Bhikkhus, this is the first person worthy of offerings, hospitality, gifts, to be worshipped with clasped hands, the incomparable field of merit, for the world.

Again, bhikkhus, a certain person abides reflecting the lack of a self in all things. Experiencing the perception of the lack of a self, constantly, without an interruption, with a mind inclined to see wisely with penetrating insight. His finishing up of desires and ending life take place at one and the same time. Bhikkhus, this is the second person worthy of offerings, hospitality, gifts, to be worshipped with clasped hands, the incomparable field of merit for the world.

Again, bhikkhus, a certain person abides reflecting the lack of a self in all things. Experiencing the perception of the lack of a self, constantly, without an interruption, with a mind inclined to see wisely with penetrating insight. Destroying the five lower bonds binding him to the sensual world, he waits to extinguish, ... re ... is close upon extinction ... re ... is to extinguish without determinations, ... re ... is to extinguish with determinations, ... re ... is one going up stream as far as the highest world of Brahma. Bhikkhus, this is the seventh person worthy of offerings, hospitality, gifts, to be worshipped with clasped hands, the incomparable field of merit for the world. Bhikkhus, these seven persons worthy of offerings, hospitality, gifts, to be worshipped with clasped hands, the incomparable field of merit for the world are evident.
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5


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