1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom
danieLion
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:15 am

Zom wrote:Indeed, as far as I know, there is no legal quorum to make a legal bhikkhuni ordination. Since that is the case, all "bhikkhunis" are considered simply as "mae chee" in Thailand (8-10 precept nuns).

"Legal"? Did you mean legitimate?

danieLion
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:18 am

pilgrim wrote:
saccaparami wrote:
You allege that no respected Theravada sangha establishments approve of bhikkhuni ordination because you know that the phrase "no Theravada sangha establishments approve of bhikkhuni ordination" is false. Therefore, those 'establishments' which do approve of them must necessarily be unrespected in some objective way. Far from being a plain fact, this is an alienating and wholly subjective judgment that has no objective support. You would need to show how bhikkhuni ordination runs afoul of Vinaya, and this cannot be done (though not for lack of trying).



Your writing sounds like good old fashioned spin to me. Where did you learn that?

Actually Dave makes a good point. I haven't seen a good argument from you yet. Care to make a valid point against bhikkhuni ordinations?
edited..

Well, it's good, and old-fashioned (in an elegant sense), but it's certainly not "spin"! :jedi:

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby PeterB » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:40 am

danieLion wrote:
Zom wrote:Indeed, as far as I know, there is no legal quorum to make a legal bhikkhuni ordination. Since that is the case, all "bhikkhunis" are considered simply as "mae chee" in Thailand (8-10 precept nuns).

"Legal"? Did you mean legitimate?

It could mean legal. In Thailand where Buddhism is the majority religion, ordination carries with it certain legal obligations and exemptions.
Neo " bhikkhunis" are not recognised in law at the present time.

saccaparami
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby saccaparami » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:46 pm

Thank you Peter for the clarification.

The so called "ordinations" are illegal according to the Thai and Burmese legal systems. They are illegitimate according to the official Theravada Sangha rulings and vinaya exegesis. You can find a lot of wrong information on the net, e.g. David Snyder's Dhammawiki is rife with manipulative and activist disinformation on this topic.

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:16 pm

saccaparami wrote:The so called "ordinations" are illegal according to the Thai and Burmese legal systems.


Slavery was legal at one time. It was illegal for Blacks and women to vote in many countries at one time. What is or is not the law of a certain country does not make it right -- it is just the common logical fallacy of Appeal to authority and/or Argumentum ad populum.

So far, the only things you have presented are Judgmental language fallacies.

In Thailand there are fully ordained bhikkhunis now, such as Bhikkhuni Dhammananda. There are not that many yet, but the government has allowed some and has been showing increasing acceptance of more fully ordained bhikkhunis.

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby PeterB » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:24 pm

saccaparami wrote:Thank you Peter for the clarification.

The so called "ordinations" are illegal according to the Thai and Burmese legal systems. They are illegitimate according to the official Theravada Sangha rulings and vinaya exegesis. You can find a lot of wrong information on the net, e.g. David Snyder's Dhammawiki is rife with manipulative and activist disinformation on this topic.



I did not imply that I agree with this lack of recognition . I dont. I think it is a grave injustice...although I have concerns about unilateral action on behalf of some preceptors.

danieLion
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:42 pm

PeterB wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Zom wrote:Indeed, as far as I know, there is no legal quorum to make a legal bhikkhuni ordination. Since that is the case, all "bhikkhunis" are considered simply as "mae chee" in Thailand (8-10 precept nuns).

"Legal"? Did you mean legitimate?

It could mean legal. In Thailand where Buddhism is the majority religion, ordination carries with it certain legal obligations and exemptions.
Precisely. It's legality varies from state to state, but rarely does it show up as a Law of the Land. And even when it does, laws are mere conventions.

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:45 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Slavery was legal at one time. It was illegal for Blacks and women to vote in many countries at one time. What is or is not the law of a certain country does not make it right -- it is just the common logical fallacy of Appeal to authority and/or Argumentum ad populum.

So far, the only things you have presented are Judgmental language fallacies.

In Thailand there are fully ordained bhikkhunis now, such as Bhikkhuni Dhammananda. There are not that many yet, but the government has allowed some and has been showing increasing acceptance of more fully ordained bhikkhunis.

:goodpost:

danieLion
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby danieLion » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:49 pm

saccaparami wrote:...The so called "ordinations"...are illegitimate according to the official Theravada Sangha rulings and vinaya exegesis. You can find a lot of wrong information on the net, e.g. David Snyder's Dhammawiki is rife with manipulative and activist disinformation on this topic.

Exegesis is not a legitimate authority base. Are you one of those people who thinks "activism's" a dirty word?

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby chownah » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:29 am

Authority only exists to the extent that one imposes it on ones self.
chownah

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby danieLion » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:33 am

saccaparami wrote:Up to now not any of the respected Theravada sangha establishments in the world approves of the re-introduction of the Theravada bhikkhuni lineage. As such we probably cannot really assert that there are 1000 Theravada bhikkhunis. Any wishful thinking won't change this fact, even though the strategy applied in this forum seems to be "A lie told often enough becomes the truth".

Are arguing the number should be lower? It's just an approximation. Do you want the number to be lower? Forget about that number and think interms of ratio: bhikkhus to bhikkunis. That entails male dominance. Do you favor retaining male dominance?

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby saccaparami » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:44 am

In Thailand there are fully ordained bhikkhunis now, such as Bhikkhuni Dhammananda. There are not that many yet, but the government has allowed some and has been showing increasing acceptance of more fully ordained bhikkhunis.


They are not accepted as Theravada bhikkhunis, as their ordination has not been permitted by the Thai Sangha and the Sangha elders. To be precise, telling from their ordination they actually are Mahayana nuns. Therefore one better calls them bhiksunis. They are free to live in any way they like as they do not belong to the Theravada Sangha. This is what you perceive as "increasing acceptance".

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:18 am

saccaparami wrote:
In Thailand there are fully ordained bhikkhunis now, such as Bhikkhuni Dhammananda. There are not that many yet, but the government has allowed some and has been showing increasing acceptance of more fully ordained bhikkhunis.


They are not accepted as Theravada bhikkhunis, as their ordination has not been permitted by the Thai Sangha and the Sangha elders. To be precise, telling from their ordination they actually are Mahayana nuns. Therefore one better calls them bhiksunis. They are free to live in any way they like as they do not belong to the Theravada Sangha. This is what you perceive as "increasing acceptance".
If they ordain under the Dharmagupta lineage, they are not Mahayana. Mahayana does not have a Vinaya ordination lineage.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

saccaparami
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby saccaparami » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:55 pm

If they ordain under the Dharmagupta lineage, they are not Mahayana. Mahayana does not have a Vinaya ordination lineage.


So they are Dharmagupta then. Not Theravada.

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:56 pm

saccaparami wrote:
If they ordain under the Dharmagupta lineage, they are not Mahayana. Mahayana does not have a Vinaya ordination lineage.


So they are Dharmagupta then. Not Theravada.
So it would seem, and it is a legitmate ordination lineage.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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tiltbillings
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:20 pm

Keep in mind that while they may have a Dharmagupta ordination lineage, they may practice the Dhamma in terms of the Theravada.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby Bankei » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:41 am

Saccaparami

Do you accept that there are Theravada Bhikkhu in existance? What about the facts that the ordination lineage was broken numerous times throughout history. What about King Mongkut forming the Dhammayut because he thought the Mahanikaya ordination invalid?

By your standards there must be no Bhikkhu either.
-----------------------
Bankei

danieLion
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby danieLion » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:44 am

@Bankei
Bhikkhuni legitimacy is not derived from lineage authority. It's derived from the authority of The Dhamma, which is public property.
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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:21 pm

:goodpost:

Good posts, DanielLion and Bankei.

In about 2,600 years into this dispensation it is unrealistic to assume that somewhere along the line there was never some break in the lineage for bhikkhus either. At some time along the line there certainly must have been some preceptor with a parajika offense or some other thing making him ineligible, but that does not change the conviction in the heart of the person receiving the ordination and the subsequent men or women who followed and their conviction and practice with the Dhamma.

By focusing too much on the letter and the rules the only outcome is less worthy people ordaining or perhaps no one being allowed to ordain and the sooner the end of the Dhamma / this dispensation.

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Re: 1000 Bhikkhunis in the World

Postby yuttadhammo » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:56 am

Sacha G wrote:Hi
I read somewhere that there were currently around 1000 bhikkhunis in the world (in the Theravada tradition).


There are over 1,000,000 bhikkhus in the world... quantity ≠ quality.


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