The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Paul Davy
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon May 06, 2013 1:31 am

Greetings,

From the aforementioned link... viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935&start=20#p227898

Robert wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.

Tilt wrote:So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"

Robert wrote:I am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?

Tilt... what did you find insufficient about Robert's response that led to you grasping onto this quotation for so long?

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'.
(Snp 3.6)

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 1:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

From the aforementioned link...
Robert wrote:But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.

Tilt wrote:So, you are saying that -- oh, let us say -- Burmese vipassana practice is "a wrong path?"

Robert wrote:I am mystified as to how you could possibly read that onto what I just wrote.
Did you understand that a member thought his mindfulness of brushing his teeth could feel unpleasant. This is an impossibility. According to Abhidhamma.
How does it in anyway bring the Mahasi system into play?

Tilt... what did you find insufficient about Robert's response that led to you grasping onto this quotation for so long?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Let us start with: it is the OP, the basis upon which which set this thread in motion. And it would have seriously helped if you provided links to the other quotes so that they could be seen in their direct contexts.

I have seen nothing, however, in what robertk has said to date that mitigates, repudiates the OP.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon May 06, 2013 1:53 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Let us start with: it is the OP, the basis upon which which set this thread in motion. And it would have seriously helped if you provided links to the other quotes so that they could be seen in their direct contexts.

I have... twice.

Taken in context, there's no way it could possibly be interpreted as a "wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style".

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'.
(Snp 3.6)

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 2:14 am

Okay. So, you are quoting stuff from another thread. So, if we are going to appeal to old threads here is robertk being plain spoken: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1210#p16923 and this is consistent this thread's OP:

    The Buddha never taught vipassana as a technique, but sadly ,and I think contributing to the decline of the sasana , in recent times there are groups who have co-opted the word to mean some type of focusing on an object/objects. It is quite easy to fool people as if they quote the satipatthana sutta (which includes countless number of objects) then it is assumed the technique is 'vipassana'. However I believe little can be done to help anyone who thinks they are 'doing' vipassana, the attachment runs too deep usually.

Quite frankly, I think what we see in this thread clearly vitiates any sort of attempt at mitigation of his anti-meditation stance.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 2:21 am

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=60#p228510

    It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 2:32 am

One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this thread:

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Robert but how about trying sitting without any thought of I'm doing this "so understanding can grow" maybe you would enjoy it in it's own right (like swimming). Maybe you would see different things.

Why do you open a dhamma book? Is it any different?

Who is judging the quality of the different activities?

Hi mr man,
yes if sitting meditation is done in that way as something to strenghthen posture, or feel relaxed , or to take a breather from the mad pursuit of happiness, then sure it is not silabataparamasa.

For me I have my other hobbies so am not so nterested for now.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 2:36 am

And another viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=180#p229309 :

robertk wrote:Tilt:
It is hard not to read this as a flat, straight forward dismissal of sitting practice itself. Maybe you were really tired when you wrote this and you really do not mean to dismiss meditation practice as direct away of cultivating the factors giving rise to wisdom/insight
.

Think of all the suttas that say seeing and color must be directly known, must be seen with wisdom. Yet I have even heard of people closing their eyes thinking this is part of 'doing vipasaana". (I realize this is a very extreme case, possibly no Dhammawheel members would think that, but it does show the confusions that exist about what 'meditation' really is in the Buddhist sense).
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby cooran » Mon May 06, 2013 3:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this threads?


Hello Tiltbillings,

I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous in the face of misunderstanding from another (yourself mainly). Your posts have sometimes seemed rude, especially in the way you referred to a well-respected Teacher, Khun Sujin, but I tried to attribute that to different ways of speech in different countries - those from the USA are often blunt to the point where those in other countries are offended.
Equally, you may be reading into Roberts' posts an emotion that was not intended.

Anyway - helpful discussion is always interesting - but Dhamma chest bumping is a little tiring.....

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 3:16 am

cooran wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this threads?


Hello Tiltbillings,

I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous in the face of misunderstanding from another (yourself mainly).
To you, but they do seem snide at times to me.

Your posts have sometimes seemed rude, especially in the way you referred to a well-respected Teacher, Khun Sujin, but I tried to attribute that to different ways of speech in different countries - those from the USA are often blunt to the point where those in other countries are offended.
As for Sujin, I find little in her teachings to respect, especially after listening to the linked Q&A in this thread, as she and her student talked about the metta practice of of Buddhists who do not follow her way. It is really sad.

Equally, you may be reading into Roberts' posts an emotion that was not intended.
Maybe, but I do not think so.

Anyway - helpful discussion is always interesting - but Dhamma chest bumping is a little tiring.....
The OP in this thread opened the door for looking at Sujin's teachings, which we have seen as characterizing sitting meditation as naught more than adherence to rules and ritual grounded in lobha by her followers here.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon May 06, 2013 3:23 am

Greetings,

cooran wrote:I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous...

For what it's worth, I concur with this statement from Cooran.

I find the (Dhamma Wheel-era) Robert to be a model of, well... good manners and equanimity!

As such, he is a positive advertisement for the approach to the Dhamma that he presents.

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'.
(Snp 3.6)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 4:30 am

cooran wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this threads?


Hello Tiltbillings,

I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous in the face of misunderstanding from another (yourself mainly).
If you are going to accuse me of misunderstanding then show me what it is, exactly, that I am misunderstanding. It does no good, and it means little, making an accusation such as this without actually showing what it is that I am supposedly misunderstanding. Am I misunderstanding his characterization of meditation as a Dhamma practice? Or am I misunderstanding his presentation?

    robertk wrote:Hi mr man,
    yes if sitting meditation is done in that way as something to strenghthen posture, or feel relaxed , or to take a breather from the mad pursuit of happiness, then sure it is not silabataparamasa.

    For me I have my other hobbies so am not so nterested for now.
Shall we take a careful look at this? You can tell me what I have misunderstood, and I'll tell you why I think it is snide.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Mon May 06, 2013 4:48 am

cooran wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:One of robertk's typically snide dismissals of formal sitting practice from this threads?


Hello Tiltbillings,

I have never found Roberts' replies to be as you describe them above. They have seemed good mannered and equanimous in the face of misunderstanding from another (yourself mainly). Your posts have sometimes seemed rude, especially in the way you referred to a well-respected Teacher, Khun Sujin, but I tried to attribute that to different ways of speech in different countries - those from the USA are often blunt to the point where those in other countries are offended.
Equally, you may be reading into Roberts' posts an emotion that was not intended.

Anyway - helpful discussion is always interesting - but Dhamma chest bumping is a little tiring.....

With metta
Chris
thanks cooran.
and also thank you retro and binocular.

Tilt,
i think you may have forgotten how and why this thread began. i started a couple of threads at the same time after seeing comments by members showing what i considered to be quite common misunderstandins about satipatthana.
in fact on the first page of this thread you asked me about the post

by robertk » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:33
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now.

tilt:Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?



and i replied:

In this thread we have someone saying:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935&start=20
Digity wrote:
My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully
?

on the other hand it is one of my beliefs that the development of vipassana is not a technique, so if you feel strongly that it is then you will probably never see any sense in most of my posts.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby cooran » Mon May 06, 2013 5:03 am

Hello Tiltbillings,

No, I won't go any further with this. I've given my general impression, but if you don't see it that way - that's fine.

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 5:07 am

cooran wrote:Hello Tiltbillings,

No, I won't go any further with this. I've given my general impression, but if you don't see it that way - that's fine.

With metta,
Chris
Then your general impression, sadly, carries no weight.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 5:25 am

The full quote of the OP, not edited version below: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." A wrong path.



robertk wrote:.

Tilt,
i think you may have forgotten how and why this thread began. i started a couple of threads at the same time after seeing comments by members showing what i considered to be quite common misunderstandins about satipatthana.
in fact on the first page of this thread you asked me about the post

by robertk » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:33
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now.

tilt:Okay. Examples of this. Who teaches such a thing?



and i replied:

In this thread we have someone saying:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935&start=20
Digity wrote:
My biggest issue with mindfulness is boredom. It's often boring to be mindful when I'm washing my teeth or doing the dishes. Does it ever become enjoyable to do all these things mindfully
?

on the other hand it is one of my beliefs that the development of vipassana is not a technique, so if you feel strongly that it is then you will probably never any sense in most of my posts.
I understand why you started this thread, but what is interesting is, as you are again displaying in this msg, is that you do not listen to what others have been repeatedly saying to you over and over again in this thread and elsewhere.

The problem is not with your understanding of satipatthana (though I do not particularly share your understanding), but it is with your pointed dismissal and strawman and potentially damaging characterizations of other forms of practice. The Sujin method may, indeed, work, but it is not the only way of practice and understanding of the Dhamma that does. Likely, had you started this thread with out the attack on mindfulness practice, I would have ignored it. But, unfortunately, you choose to do your usual negative take on other forms of practice of which Sujin does not approve, and that is worth responding to.

I know full well that vipassana is not a technique, but I also know full well that the causes and conditions for vipassana, insight, can be, as the Buddha taught, cultivated, and the differences between your position and that of those who see meditation practice of value has been drawn out by me and others at great length. But again, despite that significant difference between your mode of practice and the mode of practice that involves directly putting the teachings into practice, I would not say that what you are advocating does not work. Again, the problem is your dismissal of other ways of understanding and putting the Dhamma into practice.


As for poor Digity's boredom, as a meditative experience it may not be so bereft of sati or paññā. There is always something to see in what one looks at.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 06, 2013 6:08 am

I don't find Robert's posts unpleasant, and I did have a nice afternoon tea with Robert and some of his friends in Bangkok. And I have no problem with them presenting their opinions. However, my impression of their criticisms of other teachers is like Tilt's: that they inaccurate and often evasive. Rather than pointing out something specific that someone is teaching or doing wrong, the discussion (as in this thread) tends to focus on assumptions about what "meditators" do.

For example, this is the sort of argument I have frequently heard from Robert and his friends:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=100#p228748
dhamma follower wrote:... if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?
The highlighted statement simply makes an assumption about the motivation.

I have given examples of what other teachers say, which I find to be consistent with the statements from the Buddha that anything that arises does so from causes and conditions. I was hoping that by giving such references we we might be able to discuss in detail where exactly particular teachers and Dhamma practitioners are, or are not, making serious errors. This is clearly an important question, but to answer it requires engagement with the specifics.

:anjali:
Mike

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Paul Davy
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon May 06, 2013 6:19 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
cooran wrote:Hello Tiltbillings,

No, I won't go any further with this. I've given my general impression, but if you don't see it that way - that's fine.

With metta,
Chris
Then your general impression, sadly, carries no weight.

Or more specifically, carries no weight with you Tilt............ that might be an accurate statement. Cooran's statement carries weight with me.

It is not for you to define what carries weight in the context of the conversation. Different people see different value in different postings, and that is simply how it is. You are not appointed as an instigator or arbitrator of debate, nor to make sweeping qualifications on what is objectively good or bad, weighty or otherwise... such determinations are for each individual to make for themselves, taking into account the views presented in discussion by people, and their own personal experience, knowledge and reason. That is the respect we grant each other as autonomous self-responsible human beings.

That you do not find something to be useful doesn't really warrant a broadcast to that effect. Personally, I enjoy reading Robert's posts, even when I do not agree with what is being said... whether I attribute them weight, or not - but even if I didn't, it doesn't mean I need to make a big deal of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'.
(Snp 3.6)

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 6:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:Or more specifically, carries no weight with you
Obviously. My opinions are mine. I do not speak for anyone else, and I do not claim that I do.

That you do not find something to be useful doesn't really warrant a broadcast to that effect.
A criticism without specifics is not useful.

Personally, I enjoy reading Robert's posts, even when I do not agree with what is being said... whether I attribute them weight, or not.
That you enjoy robertk's posts is nice and there is no reason in the world that I would even think of remotely objecting to that. As for his posts carrying weight, I don't think i raised that as an issue. I do, however, question his strawman characterization of practices not approved by Sujin.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 6:34 am

Probably goes without saying, enough meta-discussion and back to the topic, please.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 06, 2013 7:23 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Robertk's OP statement: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." It is an ungrounded assertion and a wholesale dismissal of a path of practice.

TOS: Please refrain from wholesale dismissal of a particular view, approach, or teaching style.

Maybe. Or it could just be saying that CBT (and any retreat-based equivalents) are not Dhamma, because they are not founded in the forerunner of Right View.

Well, it would therefore be interesting to hear specific details about specific teachers. As far as I understand, none of the teachers I have had encountered have had such egregious wrong view and in retreat situations have been careful to point out when my view was veering off somewhere. I've illustrated the views of some teachers a few times with quotations showing that they appear to have the same understanding as the Buddha, that all phenomena that arise arise from causes and conditions (and, to this extent, they are in perfect agreement with the Khun Sujin students). Surprisingly to me, these have generated no actual discussion about the issue.
retrofuturist wrote:You can see back here - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935&start=20#p227898 - that it was never intended as a "wholesale dismissal" of Mahasi practice. In that topic it is made quite clear why he says mindfulness cannot be "tedious"... namely because it is kusala.

So not everyone who goes on retreats is practising from a basis of wrong view, then? That's a relief.

Yet we have statements such as:
dhamma follower wrote:... if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?

which seem to express the opinion that almost every modern teacher is teaching Wrong View.

:anjali:
Mike


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