[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file [ROOT]/includes/session.php on line 2208: Array to string conversion
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4688: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4690: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4691: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4692: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3823)
Dhamma Wheel • View topic - Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:17 pm

daverupa wrote:
suttametta wrote:Are you saying that the perennial inferiority of the bhikkhuni sangha is just a cultural accretion?


Basically, in my opinion, that's correct.


And then you've also alluded that some of these vinaya rules are add-ins, and Buddha never made them?
suttametta
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:18 pm

binocular wrote:
suttametta wrote:I agree with that. Still no reason to make women bow to men. That inflames a man's predisposition to pride. It should be the other way around.

And then women's predisposition to pride would be inflamed.
So how does that solve anything?


And it's not like anyone is _made_ to bow to anyone. If one wishs to be part of a particular group, then one has to play by the group's rules. Otherwise, why seek to be part of a group to begin with?


suttametta wrote:No. I'm not tening that at all. I'm tening that modern attitudes are new, and old one's aren't "ideal" or "universal". I'm tening no universal. I know for a fact that folks in my city, San Francisco, are put off by traditional asian culture, and see it as sexist and anti-gay. There have been yelling over it... So I know it's an issue for people who would like to be included but find the old-world ways, just outmoded and offensive.

Why do they want to be included in something they find "just outmoded and offensive"??


Because they want to be a part of something true. And in this world, Buddhism is the best we have.
suttametta
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby dhammafriend » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:03 pm

Reading the vinaya and Buddha's strong exhortations to his aunt, in particular, lead me to think, the Buddha was working off of very anachronistic value that no longer translate...

Suttametta, virtually all of the people who've posted here on on your side and would like to see things change regarding patriarchy and discrimination against LGBT members of the community. I ask you respectfully to take a step back and reflect on the responses here. Can we move this to a more positive discussion perhaps? if we claim to be Buddhists and yet disrespect the Triple Gem, nothing good will come of it.

Positive changes will come when we enter respectfully into those communities we'd like to see change in and develop a genuine empathy and affinity for that culture. Based on that we can then find the real cultural sticking points that need to be addressed. This could take a generation or two. Being antagonistic only makes thing worse.

Have you heard of Sakyadhitta? Do you know that women in SEAsia have for centuries now searched for ordination opportunities beyond their restrictive cultures and even achieved them? All of this independent of Western culture or influence?

please have a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammananda_Bhikkhuni

http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/59.0.html

Dhammafriend
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.
User avatar
dhammafriend
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:19 am

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:32 pm

I take it back. A layperson with attainments has no business bowing to a child monk with no attainments. A layperson does have the basis for nibbana as much so as does a monk.
suttametta
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby daverupa » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:27 pm

suttametta wrote:And then you've also alluded that some of these vinaya rules are add-ins, and Buddha never made them?


Most Vinaya is like this, recording events long after the Buddha's teaching career. But things are complex in that a local sangha can institute local rules for whoever shares the Rains together, iirc, which would be Vinaya that wasn't explicitly laid down by the Buddha but which was laid down according to a process that the Buddha did lay down.

This is one way that the Vinaya can be used in the modern day. The Patimokkha is the core that's basically the same throughout its versions (a good sign), with some differences in the training rules (which don't even have penalties) and a few other line-items. These, incidentally, are the sorts of things that local rules can ultimately adjudicate, i.e. issues of deportment, local custom, etc.

The rest of the Vinaya, as always, is a work in progress based on the shifting sands of the surrounding cultural milieux. It's a living document with a strong root, so while I don't think it's meant to ossify ca. 300 BCE standards of living I also don't think it's in the way - in terms of what the Patimokkha is asking of its monastics and the behavioral realm thereby indicated - when considering how monastics can best negotiate the modern world.

The trick is partly in strongly maintaining Patimokkha and partly in not insisting on one's local customs in faraway places, I think. As I recall, Ajahn Brahm was basically 'excommunicated' from a local custom, since there was no actual Vinaya infraction, so it's possible to see this dichotomy if one looks for it.

(For example, after seeing this dichotomy, a laypreson with attainments might choose to bow to the robes as a symbol of the Triple Gem or the Noble Sangha, and not necessarily to the putthujjana wearing the robes - though they might do that too, in order to respect the decision that's been made, etc. So things can be very multifaceted.)
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4515
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:06 pm

dhammafriend wrote:
Reading the vinaya and Buddha's strong exhortations to his aunt, in particular, lead me to think, the Buddha was working off of very anachronistic value that no longer translate...

Suttametta, virtually all of the people who've posted here on on your side and would like to see things change regarding patriarchy and discrimination against LGBT members of the community. I ask you respectfully to take a step back and reflect on the responses here. Can we move this to a more positive discussion perhaps? if we claim to be Buddhists and yet disrespect the Triple Gem, nothing good will come of it.

Positive changes will come when we enter respectfully into those communities we'd like to see change in and develop a genuine empathy and affinity for that culture. Based on that we can then find the real cultural sticking points that need to be addressed. This could take a generation or two. Being antagonistic only makes thing worse.

Have you heard of Sakyadhitta? Do you know that women in SEAsia have for centuries now searched for ordination opportunities beyond their restrictive cultures and even achieved them? All of this independent of Western culture or influence?

please have a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammananda_Bhikkhuni

http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/59.0.html

Dhammafriend


Thank you. I will research this too. Everything that's being told to me here is helping and I appreciate it. I'm don't know any of the things you all are citing. So I love to learn it. Being a first generation American, raised in the Indian and American cultures, I am not Euro-phile. But I am primarily concerned with my own country, the United States, and particularly the culture of my region, Northern California and the Pacific Northwest. I am dealing with our own unique cultural situation that I don't see the Asian monks helping with. We are Westernized folks partially of Asian descent and being indoctrinated by Asian monks in Asian culture doesn't work. Furthermore, many of us were educated in Catholic schools, and are influenced by such ethic, even though no one believes in Jesus. That's what I'm working with. We are Western culture, but it is a very different sort of Western culture than you will see in New York or England. We are the epicenter of all cultural innovations and so if Buddhism is going to help here, it had better innovate, even if that means a back to the original ethos. Furthermore, I have studied in depth with many masters of many traditions and am having a hard time sorting out what part of Buddha's teaching was really said by a guy called Gotam. It's a rabbit hole. I'm doing my best to identify the most genuine things. That's my aspiration. I don't want to create something in my image. I don't have an image. I'm just a chimera and an outcaste mostly. All I strive for is something genuine and true. The first and foremost thing I respect is critical analysis. I'm heavily influenced by my philosophy degree and my professors. I'm deeply indebted to Karl Popper, Carnap and others. I feel Buddha was the forerunner of these. Statements must be tested. The Kalama Sutta is the earliest "come and test" I read. It's a big axe to cut threw all the superstition, which I hate. I don't have time to be sensitive to people's cultural baggage. I have never cared about that. I'm the same way with my Indian family, my Christian family and all the Chinese around here. The way I see it, being an outcaste with a strong predilection for reason, I have no culture to offend. If you have a point, make it. Back it up. If you are wrong, admit it. I will. The main problem here on the West Coast is spiritual starvation and all the food is polluted. People just fall back on YOLO (you only live once), that's seriously bad for us... I'm working off the Buddha's command that we put the dhamma into plain language of the people... this is no easy task, given the amount of meddling the monks have done to Buddha's words...
Last edited by suttametta on Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:34 pm, edited 7 times in total.
suttametta
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:14 pm

daverupa wrote:
(For example, after seeing this dichotomy, a laypreson with attainments might choose to bow to the robes as a symbol of the Triple Gem or the Noble Sangha, and not necessarily to the putthujjana wearing the robes - though they might do that too, in order to respect the decision that's been made, etc. So things can be very multifaceted.)


I agree with what you say, by and large, but this sort of pharisee-like rationalization is what I think plagues all Buddhism, all the "yanas" get into this and I find it to be BS. Keep it simple and clear otherwise it cannot be differentiated from a sham.
suttametta
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:45 pm

One of the most valuable things I read was that "vinaya" didn't necessarily mean the list of rules, but one's own discipline and restraint. One can follow rules and it can harm; one can break rules and it can help. Avoid harm, benefit others... these exhortations alone should be sufficient...
suttametta
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby culaavuso » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:10 pm

daverupa wrote:(For example, after seeing this dichotomy, a laypreson with attainments might choose to bow to the robes as a symbol of the Triple Gem or the Noble Sangha, and not necessarily to the putthujjana wearing the robes - though they might do that too, in order to respect the decision that's been made, etc. So things can be very multifaceted.)


There can be value in a lay person bowing to monks regardless of whether the lay person or the monk has any attainments along the path. One reason, as mentioned, is to cultivate a feeling of respect within the mind of the person bowing. Another reason is that many lay people have a strong sense of pride or independence that can feel wounded or offended by having to bow to someone else, and direct experience of those mental activities arising after bowing to another person can provide insight into the harmfulness of pride and arrogance and the value of humility. Through cultivating humility, it is possible to cultivate greater contentment with a large variety of situations in life.

Through the practice it is possible to reach a deeper understanding of what harms oneself and others and what is of benefit to oneself and others. Part of being subject to delusion is that it's easy to misunderstand what is harmful and what is beneficial, and this seems to result in many unskillful actions that can be seen in the world today. Many people, wishing for happiness, make unskillful and deluded choices that lead themselves to states of unhappiness.
culaavuso
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:47 am

boris wrote:And who place his faith in Tathagata, place his faith in the best, and result of it will be the best. And what about these who will go to the lower worlds becouse of their object of saddha? They are wrong, are not they?

But how can one know that one is in fact placing one's faith in the Tathagata, and not in one's fanciful image of the Tathagata?
How can a person know whether they have the proper understanding of the Tathagata or not? It's not like one can talk to the Tathagata and request feedback from him as to whether one has understood him as he intended to be understood.
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:59 am

suttametta wrote:
daverupa wrote:
(For example, after seeing this dichotomy, a laypreson with attainments might choose to bow to the robes as a symbol of the Triple Gem or the Noble Sangha, and not necessarily to the putthujjana wearing the robes - though they might do that too, in order to respect the decision that's been made, etc. So things can be very multifaceted.)


I agree with what you say, by and large, but this sort of pharisee-like rationalization is what I think plagues all Buddhism, all the "yanas" get into this and I find it to be BS. Keep it simple and clear otherwise it cannot be differentiated from a sham.


This reference was already quoted earlier, but I refer to other passages -

/.../
As for confrontational reforms introduced from the bottom up, these have never been sanctioned by the tradition, and Theravadin history has no record of their ever succeeding. The only such reform mentioned in the Canon was Devadatta's attempted schism, introduced as a reform to tighten up the disciplinary rules. The Canon treats his attempt in such strongly negative terms that its memory is still very much alive in the Theravada mind set, making the vast majority of Buddhists reluctant to take up with confrontational reforms no matter how reasonable they might seem. And with good reason: Anyone who has to fight to have his/her ideas accepted inevitably loses touch with the qualities of dispassion, self-effacement, unentanglement with others, contentment with little, and seclusion — qualities the Buddha set forth as the litmus test for gauging whether or not a proposed course of action, and the person proposing it, were in accordance with the Dhamma.

In addition, there have been striking instances where people have proposed religious reforms as a camouflage for their political ambitions, leaving their followers in a lurch when their ambitions are thwarted. And even in cases where a confrontational reformer seems basically altruistic at heart, he or she tends to play up the social benefits to be gained from the proposed reform in the effort to win support, thus compromising the relationship of the reform to true practice. Experiences with cases such as this have tended to make Theravadin Buddhists in general leery of confrontational reforms.

Thus, given the limited opportunities for institutional reform, the only course left open to those few men and women prepared to break the bonds of mainstream Buddhism in their determination to practice is to follow the example of the Buddha himself by engaging in what might be called personal or independent reform: to reject the general values of society, go off on their own, put up with society's disapproval and the hardships of living on the frontier, and search for whatever reliable meditation teachers may be living and practicing outside of the mainstream. If no such teachers exist, individuals intent on practice must strike out on their own, adhering as closely as they can to the teachings in the texts — to keep themselves from being led astray by their own defilements — and taking refuge in the example of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha in a radical way.
/.../
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... namic.html



EDIT: emphases mine
Last edited by binocular on Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:03 pm

kitztack wrote:
binocular wrote:
Why do they want to be included in something they find "just outmoded and offensive"??


i guess its similar to the restaraunt with the best food in town having a dress code one doesn't agree with

The restaurant is under no obligation to serve food to just anyone who requests it, no matter how much the person might want it or be willing to pay for it in money.

- - -

suttametta wrote:Because they want to be a part of something true. And in this world, Buddhism is the best we have.

How do they know it is true, if they already think that the community who practices it, is "just outmoded and offensive"?

suttametta wrote:Thank you for this reference. I was not aware of it. I'm an looking in to it now. I'm not one for useless prattle. I'm here to solve my problems and I will act according to what I find.

If you're here to solve your problems, what has convinced you that this can be done here or that it is worth trying to do so here?
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby boris » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:07 pm

binocular wrote:
boris wrote:And who place his faith in Tathagata, place his faith in the best, and result of it will be the best. And what about these who will go to the lower worlds becouse of their object of saddha? They are wrong, are not they?

But how can one know that one is in fact placing one's faith in the Tathagata, and not in one's fanciful image of the Tathagata?
How can a person know whether they have the proper understanding of the Tathagata or not? It's not like one can talk to the Tathagata and request feedback from him as to whether one has understood him as he intended to be understood.


You shift discussion to different problem. Not being sotapanna, you can be sure you don't understand Tathagata. So what? Exactly because of this base on Tathagata words, you make efford to understand Tathagata. And this is your saddha.

But here, we discuss the case, where you contradict words of Tathagata and suggest, that he is mistaken. And as I said - this is lack of saddha.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
boris
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:14 pm

boris wrote:You shift discussion to different problem. Not being sotapanna, you can be sure you don't understand Tathagata. So what? Exactly because of this base on Tathagata words, you make efford to understand Tathagata. And this is your saddha.

But here, we discuss the case, where you contradict words of Tathagata and suggest, that he is mistaken. And as I said - this is lack of saddha.

Whom are you talking to?
Certainly not me.
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby boris » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:32 pm

Sorry, I used word "you" just as an example of two kinds attitude in order to answer your question. So I talk to you :smile: but I do not suggest that you contradict words of Tathagata. It was only an ilustration. Sorry once again :smile:
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
boris
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:38 pm

This is why English has the neutral formulation with the pronoun "one."
"One ought to be careful about what one says."
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:46 pm

More from the above mentioned essay:

/.../
Much has been written recently on the role of women in Buddhism, but it is interesting to note that, for all of Upasika Kee's accomplishments in her own personal Dhamma practice and in providing opportunities for other women to practice as well, socio-historical books on Thai women in Buddhism make no mention of her name or of the community she founded. This underscores the distinction between Buddhism as practice and mainstream Buddhism as a socio-historical phenomenon, a distinction that is important to bear in mind when issues related to the place of women in Buddhism are discussed.

Study after study has shown that mainstream Buddhism, both lay and monastic, has adapted itself thoroughly to the various societies into which it has been introduced — so thoroughly that the original teachings seem in some cases to have been completely distorted. From the earliest centuries of the tradition on up to the present, groups who feel inspired by the Buddha's teachings, but who prefer to adapt those teachings to their own ends rather than adapting themselves to the teachings, have engaged in creating what might be called designer Buddhism. This accounts for the wide differences we find when we compare, say, Japanese Buddhism, Tibetan, and Thai, and for the variety of social roles to which many women Buddhists in different countries have found themselves relegated.

The true practice of Buddhism, though, has always been counter-cultural, even in nominally Buddhist societies. Society's main aim, no matter where, is its own perpetuation. Its cultural values are designed to keep its members useful and productive — either directly or indirectly — in the on-going economy. Most religions allow themselves to become domesticated to these values by stressing altruism as the highest religious impulse, and mainstream Buddhism is no different. Wherever it has spread, it has become domesticated to the extent that the vast majority of monastics as well as lay followers devote themselves to social services of one form or another, measuring their personal spiritual worth in terms of how well they have loved and served others.

However, the actual practice enjoined by the Buddha does not place such a high value on altruism at all. In fact, he gave higher praise to those who work exclusively for their own spiritual welfare than to those who sacrifice their spiritual welfare for the welfare of others (Anguttara Nikaya, Book of Fours, Sutta 95) — a teaching that the mainstream, especially in Mahayana traditions, has tended to suppress. The true path of practice pursues happiness through social withdrawal, the goal being an undying happiness found exclusively within, totally transcending the world, and not necessarily expressed in any social function. People who have attained the goal may teach the path of practice to others, or they may not. Those who do are considered superior to those who don't, but those who don't are in turn said to be superior to those who teach without having attained the goal themselves. Thus individual attainment, rather than social function, is the true measure of a person's worth.
/.../
(emphases mine)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... namic.html
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby Mkoll » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:55 pm

boris,

As we aren't stream-enterers, we haven't yet awakened to the truth. Thus, what we should do is "safeguard/protect/preserve the truth". We do this by not saying "Only this is true; anything else is worthless." Ven. Bodhi describes this along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing): respecting the truth. I take this to mean that when one claims something is absolutely true and other things are worthless, one is not respecting the truth unless one truly knows and sees that that something is absolutely true, i.e. they are at least a stream-winner who has known and see for themself. And even then, I doubt stream-winners would say such things that are sure to stir up conflict in others because such a one "delights in concord" (right speech).

I'm basing this off my interpretation of the Canki Sutta, MN 95.

:anjali:
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 4146
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:58 pm

binocular wrote:
suttametta wrote:
daverupa wrote:
(For example, after seeing this dichotomy, a laypreson with attainments might choose to bow to the robes as a symbol of the Triple Gem or the Noble Sangha, and not necessarily to the putthujjana wearing the robes - though they might do that too, in order to respect the decision that's been made, etc. So things can be very multifaceted.)


I agree with what you say, by and large, but this sort of pharisee-like rationalization is what I think plagues all Buddhism, all the "yanas" get into this and I find it to be BS. Keep it simple and clear otherwise it cannot be differentiated from a sham.


This reference was already quoted earlier, but I refer to other passages -

/.../
As for confrontational reforms introduced from the bottom up, these have never been sanctioned by the tradition, and Theravadin history has no record of their ever succeeding. The only such reform mentioned in the Canon was Devadatta's attempted schism, introduced as a reform to tighten up the disciplinary rules. The Canon treats his attempt in such strongly negative terms that its memory is still very much alive in the Theravada mind set, making the vast majority of Buddhists reluctant to take up with confrontational reforms no matter how reasonable they might seem. And with good reason: Anyone who has to fight to have his/her ideas accepted inevitably loses touch with the qualities of dispassion, self-effacement, unentanglement with others, contentment with little, and seclusion — qualities the Buddha set forth as the litmus test for gauging whether or not a proposed course of action, and the person proposing it, were in accordance with the Dhamma.

In addition, there have been striking instances where people have proposed religious reforms as a camouflage for their political ambitions, leaving their followers in a lurch when their ambitions are thwarted. And even in cases where a confrontational reformer seems basically altruistic at heart, he or she tends to play up the social benefits to be gained from the proposed reform in the effort to win support, thus compromising the relationship of the reform to true practice. Experiences with cases such as this have tended to make Theravadin Buddhists in general leery of confrontational reforms.

Thus, given the limited opportunities for institutional reform, the only course left open to those few men and women prepared to break the bonds of mainstream Buddhism in their determination to practice is to follow the example of the Buddha himself by engaging in what might be called personal or independent reform: to reject the general values of society, go off on their own, put up with society's disapproval and the hardships of living on the frontier, and search for whatever reliable meditation teachers may be living and practicing outside of the mainstream. If no such teachers exist, individuals intent on practice must strike out on their own, adhering as closely as they can to the teachings in the texts — to keep themselves from being led astray by their own defilements — and taking refuge in the example of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha in a radical way.
/.../
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... namic.html



EDIT: emphases mine


I tend to agree with the criticisms of Thassinaro in the text previous cited "Broken Buddha." There is very little evidence the current Pali tradition is capable of establishing arahants... The tradition appears atrophied, save for the rare exception of the occasional inspiring teacher. I personally have zero political ambition, I merely want to help my niece and my wife with dhamma. I'm just working on what that really is... Vajrayana on the other hand produces them with regularity. My only problem with that is I prefer the feeling that I'm hearing the Buddha not someone millennia apart. The "pith instructions" of Vajrayana and Dzogchen are very good at what they do. I've been looking into the suttas to find how Buddha might have said those same or similar things so I can refer to those instead of the pith instructions. If you look at what Ajahn Chah says,... these are pith instructions...
suttametta
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:24 pm

suttametta wrote: I tend to agree with the criticisms of Thassinaro in the text previous cited "Broken Buddha."

Leaving aside for the moment that those criticisms are based on "Thanissaro seems to imply" - seems to imply ...


There is very little evidence the current Pali tradition is capable of establishing arahants... The tradition appears atrophied, save for the rare exception of the occasional inspiring teacher.

I personally have zero political ambition, I merely want to help my niece and my wife with dhamma. I'm just working on what that really is...

So what would you esteem your status to be, in terms of attainment? Stream-winner?
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests