The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:38 pm

Greetings,

The BCC Bookshop is back online... and with it, the chance to get Dharmasena Hettiarachchi's excellent "Buddhist Economic Philosophy - As Reflected In Early Buddhism" for just $1.70 plus postage.

Image

http://www.buddhistcc.net/bookshop/book ... sp?bid=372

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Nori » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:24 am

Jhana4 wrote:If you are involved in a sphere only bad things come from not being involved in that sphere. Lay people living in the regular world to pay attention to and be involved with the politics there. A failure to do could impair their ability to live there and enjoy the dhamma.
:thumbsup:

In the Mangala Sutta (The Highest Blessings), it is mentioned that an agreeable, harmonious locality for residence is one of the highest blessings.

Pa.tiruupa (congenial) desa (locality) vaaso (for residence)

---

This, at least in our case, is a precarious state and needs to be maintained actively.
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby danieLion » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:18 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
chownah wrote:From the Open letter above:
"Most importantly, we believe that individual awakening and collective transformation are inseparable."
Really?

... for what it's worth, a significant degree of social and cultural development and accommodation are necessary for the dhamma to flourish. Therefore, appropriate conditions are important.

I actually took that in the opposite way, i.e. that individual awakening leads to collective transformation, and I think that is true as well. The less wrapped in ego we are, the more it seems that others' suffering is as important as our own and the more we feel the need to relieve it.

:namaste:
Kim

The Buddha was not a collectivist.
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:24 am

Greetings,
danieLion wrote:The Buddha was not a collectivist.

How else would you describe the structure of the Sangha?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby danieLion » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:27 am

The last thing those in power want you to do is practice bhavana.

Local note 1: The Park Occupiers here have turned what was once a beautiful park into Mordor. Think they'll leave it like they found it?

Local note 2: The marquee of the Lutheran Church in my neighborhood says, "Occupy Mindfulness."

DanieLion :heart:
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby danieLion » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
danieLion wrote:The Buddha was not a collectivist.

How else would you describe the structure of the Sangha?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Show me a Sutta reference where the Buddha said the Sangha (I understand the Sangha to be the ordained and "those who have practiced well," not a wider "Buddhist community." That's the parisa.) should be structured as collective and maybe you'll have some ground to stand on.
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:38 am

Greetings Daniel,

It's called the Vinaya Pitaka.

:reading:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby danieLion » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Daniel,

It's called the Vinaya Pitaka.

:reading:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Please be specific. If your convinced he was a collectivist, you should be able to produce at least one VP quote off the top of your head. Or are you just inferring from the VP as a collective? Should Buddhists in support of Occupy City Parks base their assertions on mere inference?
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby danieLion » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:05 am

retrofuturist wrote: It's called the Vinaya Pitaka.

Besides, even if the Buddha actually said, "I'm a collectivist and if you ordain in my order you're a collectivist too" (looks even more silly when you spell it out) it's a description of an exclusive structure which only applies to the order. Of course the order is a collective, but it's only so in contrast to the world. The type of collectivism Kim and chownah reference is not the type of collectivism the Buddha instituted for his monks and nuns. It was not created to change the world. It was created to assist the serious seekers in waking up. No matter how much we want the Buddha to be a welfare liberal, we can't support it by the Dhamma without making wild inferences to support our flimsy moral and political philosophical views.:heart:
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:17 am

Greetings,

DanieLion wrote:Of course the order is a collective

So much for "The Buddha was not a collectivist" then.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:19 am

danieLion wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:I actually took that in the opposite way, i.e. that individual awakening leads to collective transformation, and I think that is true as well. The less wrapped in ego we are, the more it seems that others' suffering is as important as our own and the more we feel the need to relieve it.

The Buddha was not a collectivist.
DanieLion :heart:

Hi, DanieLion,
I didn't say anything about collectivism and I don't know why you made that jump. All I said and all I meant was that the ownership of the suffering ('my' suffering vs 'his' suffering) seems to matter less and less: suffering exists, compassion exists and compassionate action tries to reduce the suffering. Not collective action, hardly even individual action - just a need being met.

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby danieLion » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:26 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

DanieLion wrote:Of course the order is a collective

So much for "The Buddha was not a collectivist" then.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Are you going to read the rest of the post? "So much for...?" Your invalid inference is like saying, "I started a group. Now I'm a Groupist. Does not follow.

Find that Vinaya reference yet?
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby chownah » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:22 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
danieLion wrote:The Buddha was not a collectivist.

How else would you describe the structure of the Sangha?

Metta,
Retro. :)

The core group running the Occupy Wall Street is almost assuredly dominated by anarchists...I say "almost assuredly" because I have no direct knowlege of just exacly who they are but I have associated with anarchist for many years and it is not difficult to recognize them if you are familiar with their philosophy, outlook, and tactics. Collectivism, collective, and collecivist have particular meanings when used by anarchists because the modern anarchist movement and the political collectivist movement matured in the same cohort of people. The meaning most used by anarchist for "collectivism" is an association of people where all people have equal say and power to act....there is no boss....there is no fixed power structure and what power structure that exists only exists across the entire collective because there is consensus accepting that power structure. There is alot more to it than that but I have given you some of the highlights. I worked in a business that was run as a collective in the anarchist sense of the word....it is was way different than any other experience I ever had....I can assure you that if individual awakening is taken to mean what the Buddha thought we should strive for and if collective transformation is taken to be what the core group running the Occupy Wall Street would almost assuredly consider it to mean then to say that they are inseperable is :rolleye:

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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Nyana » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:02 pm

danieLion wrote:The Buddha was not a collectivist.

The Buddha was a samaṇa -- a homeless ascetic.

danieLion wrote:The type of collectivism Kim and chownah reference is not the type of collectivism the Buddha instituted for his monks and nuns. It was not created to change the world. It was created to assist the serious seekers in waking up.

The dhammavinaya and ordained sangha can co-exist with egalitarian and collectivist principles and co-ops just as easily as they can with capitalist principles -- maybe even moreso. From a Buddhist perspective:

Image

Image
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby chris98e » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:45 pm

TMingyur wrote:The Buddha did not teach worldly engagement. Kind regards
.
I have to disagree with that on the grounds that the Buddha always had time to see someone who wan't a monk and talk to them and teach them the way. If the Buddha did not talk to non-monks then you would be right. But the Buddha did talk to people who weren't monks and thus did not shun worldly engagment. :coffee:
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby manas » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:45 pm

I can see both sides to this issue.

On the one hand, we are nuts if we do not practise dhamma for the sake of awakening every waking moment, putting aside worldly concerns, at least until we have broken through to the first stage of awakening. (Yes, technically that makes me 'nuts' as well. These human births are as rare as hen's teeth, so I hear).

On the other hand, (many of) the ruling elite are quite satanic (according to the research I have done) and who knows, maybe if they ultimately enforce a global government with all of us safely microchipped and under total surveillance, they might then just decide to ban ALL religious activity, including ours...so, does it really 'not matter' to try and prevent this (global government / criminal bankster rule) from happening?

How I wish life were simple, with no dilemmas!

:anjali:
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby danieLion » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:15 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
danieLion wrote:The Buddha was not a collectivist.

The Buddha was a samaṇa -- a homeless ascetic.

danieLion wrote:The type of collectivism Kim and chownah reference is not the type of collectivism the Buddha instituted for his monks and nuns. It was not created to change the world. It was created to assist the serious seekers in waking up.

The dhammavinaya and ordained sangha can co-exist with egalitarian and collectivist principles and co-ops just as easily as they can with capitalist principles -- maybe even moreso. From a Buddhist perspective:

Image

Image

:bow: :bow: :bow:
Daniel :heart:
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby danieLion » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

The BCC Bookshop is back online... and with it, the chance to get Dharmasena Hettiarachchi's excellent "Buddhist Economic Philosophy - As Reflected In Early Buddhism" for just $1.70 plus postage.

Image

http://www.buddhistcc.net/bookshop/book ... sp?bid=372

Metta,
Retro. :)

Hi Retro,
This books looks extremely promising. I can't recall for sure, but I remember someone requesting a synopsis from you and would like to second that with a big PLEASE and add to it, with true sincerity and absolute due respect, why do you recommend it? How can it inform bhavana? Etc...?
Warmly,
Daniel :heart:
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:23 am

Greetings,

There is no simple "wrap up" unfortunately - the conclusion chapter itself takes about 20-30 pages from memory.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Postby daverupa » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:35 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

There is no simple "wrap up" unfortunately - the conclusion chapter itself takes about 20-30 pages from memory.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Are you able to list, say, three changes with your lay Buddhist practice as a result of the read? Tweaks, refinements, droppings?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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