McMindfulness meditation dangers

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:09 am

Greetings,

mikenz66 wrote:But how much theoretical knowledge in terms of Noble Truths, etc, is actually necessary to get properly established? As Ben says, it probably isn't all that much...

Not much to start with, I agree, but the meditation practice should be circling and reinforcing the Right View, rather than being conducted as a separate activity in a separate sphere disconnected from Right View.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:It does not claim to; however, it seems that some individuals who are practicing this are getting some results that are interesting and seem to be genuine insights, in Buddhist terms, but then the issue is, without a context in which to understand the insights things can get bollixed.

If the insights are devoid of any appropriate context or understanding, what could make them supramundane "insight"?
So, what context must an insight have to alter a person's life?

tiltbillings wrote:There is Right View and there is Right View. It depends, and you just dodged the question.

So you say.
And so you have done, again.

As I've said repeatedly already (and am not inclined to repeat it to you beyond the traditional third time), it is, as mentioned above in the suttas quoted above 1) iterative (i.e. run and circle) , and 2) with Right View as the forerunner to Right (anything else)
Which is all very nice but it does not address the question you are dodging.

tiltbillings wrote:a) Right View is some sort of mindfulness activity?...
b) Cannot really abandon wrong view until one has some sort of actual insight.


Again, see the "run and circle" quote. If you don't accept the quotes, then fine.
You have not at all shown how it applies.

tiltbillings wrote:Wrong view is not just matter of conceptualization, nor is Right View in terms of actually abandoning wrong view just some sort of conceptualization.

Right View itself is a matter of conceptualization (what else could a "view" be?), and it's the fulfilment of the full Noble Eightfold Path (not the Ignoble Onefold Path of Wrong Mindfulness) that transforms Right View into to Right Knowledge... but again, Right View is the forerunner. Again, see the "run and circle" quote.
Conceptualization is a tool for helping direct behaviour to cultivate bhavana that may give rise to insight. It is only on the basis of insight that self-view can meaningfully be let go. If it were just a matter of conceptualization we would be able to think our way out of samsara. Right View on a mundane level is a conceptual tool, but Right View grounded in insight is the expression of one freedom from self concept.

It perplexes me that you regard my statement "There is no Buddhist meditation without Right View" as speculative in light of the above.
I can see that.

"McMindfulness" or "Just mindfulness" is a sham Dhamma. That is not what the Buddha taught.
It is not pretending to be Dhamma, but it seems that some individuals can have insights arising from the secular mindfulness practice that really point to something more than mere stress release or pain control and has more in common with Dhamma teachings, which is an interesting thing.

As for the supposed dangers of McMindfulness, I don't care to speculate - I am a follower of the Buddha, not other religionists or secularists.
But you have speculated and continue to do so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:47 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So, what context must an insight have to alter a person's life?

A mundane change? I don't care for that - as I said, paths with mundane destinations are not of interest to me.

tiltbillings wrote:Conceptualization is a tool for helping direct behaviour to cultivate bhavana that may give rise to insight. It is only on the basis of insight that self-view can meaningfully be let go.

The Buddha did not pit "conceptualization" in the form of Right View against bhavana. Right View as the forerunner is indispensable, and is what is needed to make the Sati and Samadhi "Right".

tiltbillings wrote:If it were just a matter of conceptualization we would be able to think our way out of samsara.

Given that no one is promoting Right View as an Ignoble Onefold Path, that's of no relevance to any position that anyone in this topic is advocating.

tiltbillings wrote:Right View on a mundane level is a conceptual tool, but Right View grounded in insight is the expression of one freedom from self concept.

Right View transforms to Right Knowledge via pursuit of the Noble Eightfold Path.

tiltbillings wrote:It is not pretending to be Dhamma, but it seems that some individuals can have insights arising from the secular mindfulness practice that really point to something more than mere stress release or pain control and has more in common with Dhamma teachings, which is an interesting thing.

Interesting if you're interested in mundane insights, with mundane benefits and mundane insights, disconnected from Right View and the Noble Eightfold Path perhaps. Personally, I'll pass and leave that for others to find "interesting".

:hello:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:54 am

retrofuturist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It is not pretending to be Dhamma, but it seems that some individuals can have insights arising from the secular mindfulness practice that really point to something more than mere stress release or pain control and has more in common with Dhamma teachings, which is an interesting thing.

Interesting if you're interested in mundane insights, with mundane benefits and mundane insights, disconnected from Right View and the Noble Eightfold Path perhaps. Personally, I'll pass and leave that for others to find "interesting".

I wouldn't call seeing the self dissolving "mundane".

:anjali:
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:58 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I wouldn't call seeing the self dissolving "mundane".

So they're stream-entrants now? If not, mundane.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:I wouldn't call seeing the self dissolving "mundane".

So they're stream-entrants now? If not, mundane.

Well, sure, most of us here also have a mundane practice in that sense... :coffee:

But it's certainly not a trivial step...

:anjali:
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:11 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:But it's certainly not a trivial step...

If one aspires to deva realms, continuation of samsara, unity with Brahma or God etc. perhaps it doesn't matter if mundane benefit is connected to Right View or not.

Again, that's not my concern or interest (i.e. to me, it's trivial if it relates to a path not leading to liberation - and meditative experiences obtained that are observed with Wrong View are just that).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So, what context must an insight have to alter a person's life?

A mundane change? I don't care for that - as I said, paths with mundane destinations are not of interest to me.
A person doing secular mindfulness practice has a profound insight that all conditioned things are impermanent. There is no value in that, even if it alters her life? It can only have value if it solely within a Buddhist context?

tiltbillings wrote:Conceptualization is a tool for helping direct behaviour to cultivate bhavana that may give rise to insight. It is only on the basis of insight that self-view can meaningfully be let go.

The Buddha did not pit "conceptualization" in the form of Right View against bhavana.
I did not say he did. Far from it.

Right View as the forerunner is indispensable, and is what is needed to make the Sati and Samadhi "Right".
And following your lead, I'll repeat myself: Right View, on a conceptual level is a tool for directing behavior, but it is only with insight that self (wrong)-view can be meaningfully let go. It is only with insight that conceptual right view becomes actual knowledge.

tiltbillings wrote:If it were just a matter of conceptualization we would be able to think our way out of samsara.

Given that no one is promoting Right View as an Ignoble Onefold Path, that's of no relevance to any position that anyone in this topic is advocating.
Thank you for clarifying your point.

tiltbillings wrote:Right View on a mundane level is a conceptual tool, but Right View grounded in insight is the expression of one freedom from self concept.

Right View transforms to Right Knowledge via pursuit of the Noble Eightfold Path.
And the whole point of the Noble Eightfold Path is insight, leading to full awakening.

tiltbillings wrote:It is not pretending to be Dhamma, but it seems that some individuals can have insights arising from the secular mindfulness practice that really point to something more than mere stress release or pain control and has more in common with Dhamma teachings, which is an interesting thing.

Interesting if you're interested in mundane insights, with mundane benefits and mundane insights, disconnected from Right View and the Noble Eightfold Path perhaps. Personally, I'll pass and leave that for others to find "interesting".
If you'll pass, then why are you engaging in this? But the issue here is that what is a secular practice can have effects beyond its secular goal that pushes into the realm of the Dhamma, as the author of article points out, and that is interesting in and of itself, but also points out the nature and effectiveness of mindfulness practice. If you do not find that interesting, then why are you bothering with this?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:14 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:If you'll pass, then why are you engaging in this? But the issue here is that what is a secular practice can have effects beyond its secular goal that pushes into the realm of the Dhamma, as the author of article points out, and that is interesting in and of itself, but also points out the nature and effectiveness of mindfulness practice. If you do not find that interesting, then why are you bothering with this?

My concern is with what I've bolded. McMindfulness devoid of Right View does no such thing, and it's a brothelization of the Dhamma to suggest that it does.

Promote and endorse the mundane benefits derivable from mindfulness practices disconnected with Right View if you like, but don't fob them off as Dhamma or onward leading - they are sham Dhamma. The Buddha said the Dhamma is only found where there is the Noble Eightfold Path and there is no Noble Eightfold Path without its forerunner, Right View. Likewise, the Dhamma is only found where there are ariya, and there are no ariya amongst deluded meditators, such as those mentioned in the OP link, who have no idea what it is that's being experienced via the six consciousnesses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:If you'll pass, then why are you engaging in this? But the issue here is that what is a secular practice can have effects beyond its secular goal that pushes into the realm of the Dhamma, as the author of article points out, and that is interesting in and of itself, but also points out the nature and effectiveness of mindfulness practice. If you do not find that interesting, then why are you bothering with this?

My concern is with what I've bolded. McMindfulness devoid of Right View does no such thing, and it's a brothelization of the Dhamma to suggest that it does.

Promote and endorse the mundane benefits derivable from practice disconnected with Right View, but don't fob them off as Dhamma - they are sham Dhamma.
In youir opinion, but I think your opinion an overreaction and is simply wrong, but then that is my opinion. Simply, if a person as a result of such a practice has an insight into anicca and from there pursues the actual Buddhist side of the practice of mindfulness that is a good thing. You don't think so?

Whether it is the result of such a secular mindfulness practice or a life blow such as a death in the family or cancer or some such thing, people can have genuine insights totally outside of a Buddhist context that push them into actual Dhamma practice. Basically, you are saying, so it seems, that any insight outside of a narrowly prescribed context has no real value, no matter the results.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:31 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Simply, if a person as a result of such a practice has an insight into anicca and from there pursues the actual Buddhist side of the practice of mindfulness that is a good thing. You don't think so?

I disagree that the blue is possible (short of a paccekabuddha or sammasambuddha styled effort to, in this case unnecessarily, rediscover the ancient path inclusive of Right View from scratch for oneself), and I acknowledge the red may serve as one of the 84,000 Dharma Gates (to quote a Mahayanism), but that doesn't make it Dhamma.

tiltbillings wrote:Whether it is the result of such a secular mindfulness practice or a life blow such as a death in the family or cancer or some such thing, people can have genuine insights totally outside of a Buddhist context that push them into actual Dhamma practice. Basically, you are saying, so it seems, that any insight outside of a narrowly prescribed context has no real value, no matter the results.

What I'm saying is that any so-called "insight" that is devoid of Right View is not liberating. Not being liberating, I don't care for it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:Simply, if a person as a result of such a practice has an insight into anicca and from there pursues the actual Buddhist side of the practice of mindfulness that is a good thing. You don't think so?

I disagree that the blue is possible (short of a paccekabuddha or sammasambuddha styled effort to, in this case unnecessarily, rediscover the ancient path inclusive of Right View from scratch for oneself),
The problem with your position is that it is the Buddha's teaching of mindfulness that is actually at play, albeit stripped down, but it is there, nonetheless.

and I acknowledge the red may serve as one of the 84,000 Dharma Gates (to quote a Mahayanism), but that doesn't make it Dhamma.
In your opinion. It could be that that first taste of the truth of anicca is what brought that person to the Dhamma, making it the first taste of the Dhamma. What else would it be?

tiltbillings wrote:Whether it is the result of such a secular mindfulness practice or a life blow such as a death in the family or cancer or some such thing, people can have genuine insights totally outside of a Buddhist context that push them into actual Dhamma practice. Basically, you are saying, so it seems, that any insight outside of a narrowly prescribed context has no real value, no matter the results.

What I'm saying is that any so-called "insight" that is devoid of Right View is not liberating. Not being liberating, I don't care for it.
It is liberating (potentially) if it becomes part of one's path of Dhamma practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:58 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:The problem with your position is that it is the Buddha's teaching of mindfulness that is actually at play, albeit stripped down, but it is there, nonetheless.

The Buddha taught Samma Sati, Right Mindfulness. This conflation of Samma Sati and McMindfulness, and the neglect of what makes the sati "right" is the problem here. The problem isn't with my position, because my position is firmly founded in the Buddha's teaching.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:The Buddha taught Samma Sati, Right Mindfulness. This conflation of Samma Sati and McMindfulness, and the neglect of what makes the sati "right" is the problem here. The problem isn't with my position, because my position is firmly founded in the Buddha's teaching.
No one is conflating the two, and for all your firmly goundedness, the reality is -- like it or not -- that people doing the secular practice sometimes have interesting results/experiences beyond the stated purpose of why they thought they were doing it, results/experiences that if pursued, have Dhammic implcations. That's the reality reported in the OP link.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:17 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:It could be that that first taste of the truth of anicca is what brought that person to the Dhamma, making it the first taste of the Dhamma. What else would it be?

Experience of anicca is an entirely different thing than insight with respect to anicca.

People around the world experience anatta, anicca and dukkha all the time - but that doesn't mean they have any insight as to what they're experiencing. This has been going on since unimaginable beginnings.

I won't allege you are unless you say for yourself that you are, but you're not conflating experience with insight are you?

To use my colour-coding, McMindfulness meditators are playing entirely in the red space, and as much as they may be accentuating their experience of the red through their McMindfulness "techniques", McMindfulness "methods" and McMindfulness "practice", they do not have the tools (i.e. Right View, Noble Eightfold Path - i.e. what the Buddha taught) to cross into the blue.

It is the blue that is cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:It could be that that first taste of the truth of anicca is what brought that person to the Dhamma, making it the first taste of the Dhamma. What else would it be?

Experience of anicca is an entirely different thing than insight with respect to anicca.
Just to clarify what I meant. I meant insight into anicca, which comes from experiencing it without conceptualizing it -- "in the seen just the seen . . . ." That is fully within the realm of secular mindfulness practice if one is diligent and focused enough with the practice.

I won't allege you are unless you say for yourself that you are, but you're not conflating experience with insight are you?
Lots of worry about conflation stuff going on here. You can allege what you want.

To use my colour-coding, McMindfulness meditators are playing entirely in the red space, and as much as they may be accentuating their experience of the red, they do not have the tools (i.e. Right View, Noble Eightfold Path) to cross into the blue.
They may not have the tools to contextualize the experience, but that does not mean that a direct, non-conceptual experience of change cannot happen to a diligent mindfulness practitioner.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:46 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:That's the reality reported in the OP link.

The reality reported in the OP link is that they've got bugger all insight with respect to what they're experiencing because they're playing exclusively in the red.

As Dr. Kelly McGonigal says, "People are spontaneously experiencing this when they do the practices and they aren’t necessarily deeply disturbed by them but they don’t understand what’s happening. And I don’t have the theory or the words from western psychology or a secular field to explain this in way that I find is helpful as how a Buddhist teacher would explain these experiences and what to do with them, how to use them in your practice and other things like that."

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:55 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:That's the reality reported in the OP link.

The reality reported in the OP link is that they've got bugger all insight with respect to what they're experiencing because they're playing exclusively in the red.

As Dr. Kelly McGonigal says, "People are spontaneously experiencing this when they do the practices and they aren’t necessarily deeply disturbed by them but they don’t understand what’s happening. And I don’t have the theory or the words from western psychology or a secular field to explain this in way that I find is helpful as how a Buddhist teacher would explain these experiences and what to do with them, how to use them in your practice and other things like that."

Metta,
Retro. :)
Acually, McGonigal makes my point. Thanks for quoting this. They may not understand what is happening in terms of having the experience/insight, because that was not explained to them as somethging that could happen, but that does not mean that -- to stay with anicca -- that their experience of anicca was not not a direct, non-conceptual experience of the rise and fall of whatever was in their field of awareness. That is, I would say, is obviously the sort of thing McGonigal is talking about.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:59 am

Greetings Tilt,

insight into anicca, which comes from experiencing it without conceptualizing it


"Experiencing it without conceptualizing it" is what snails do.

Image

That's not "insight into anicca", that's avijja... ignorance.

:rofl:

I'll take Buddha-dhamma over animal realm Snail-dhamma, thanks.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Postby Ben » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:"Experiencing it without conceptualizing it" is what snails do.


Paul, could you please explain this comment? \
Thanks.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


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