Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:50 pm

Alex123 wrote:Thank you for your link. As for:
"“Sati, as bare attention, is never completely bare. When practiced in the full context of the noble eightfold path (even the path-practice of a worldling) it is, or should be, embraced by other factors of the path, most notably by right view, right motivation, and right effort (factors 1, 2, and 6); it is already supported by the three morality factors (3, 4, 5).”" , then why call it "bare" attention? Why not use some other term such as "appropriate attention" or simply as developing "Noble Eightfold path"?
Well, you'd have to ask Ven Nyanaponika, but "bare attention" does indicate an important quality of sati, mindfulness, practice, but if you do not like the expression, don't use it, but at least you can recognize that when Vens Bodhi and Analayo (among others) are using "bare attention", they do have this sort of thing in mind.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:58 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It might be better, assuming your concentration and mindfulness are sufficient, to simply pay attention to the lust... But in simply paying attention to it without comment, you see it for what it is, the discomfort that goes with the wanting-mind and you also get to actually see -- not think about, but actually see -- the changing and conditioned and empty nature of it. One can sit with very uncomfortable states of mind and not react to them, not getting lost in them, seeing -- not thinking about -- what actually is arising and falling, which is nothing more than six interealted processes.


MN 19 wrote:"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with sensuality arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with sensuality has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding.'

"As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence.


Are these the same?
Possibly, but what would be the best way to abandon lust? I would think by seeing its actual conditioned nature, which is to see it unsatifactoriness. While all of the things mentioned in the text you quote are quite true, one does not need to go through all of that conceptually to see that it is true; rather, seeing the nature of lust as it arises and falls, is to see all of that. One things that is really interesting and really powerful is seeing that very moment when the storm of lust ceases. The contrast between a mind with lust and mind quiet, concntrated and attentive is illuminatiing beyond words.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Alex123 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:20 pm

Hello Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:There is nothing wrong trying to remember all those things, but that pretty much puts your into the realm of conceptualization, of thinking about things, not seeing what is actually happening, which is not to say that these are not useful tools, depending upon the context.
...


Thank you very much for advice. I wonder if "thinking" is really that bad if it is strictly about Dhamma (anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, virāga, etc).

If thinking helps to develop wisdom and let go of all delusion and craving, than it is useful IMHO. Contemplation about aging, sickness, death, is contemplation about what actually will occur and does lead to maggaphala. Ex: AN5.57

"'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

"'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ...

"'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ...

"'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ...

"'I am the owner of my actions,[1] heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...

..."A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:24 pm

Alex123 wrote:Hello Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:There is nothing wrong trying to remember all those things, but that pretty much puts your into the realm of conceptualization, of thinking about things, not seeing what is actually happening, which is not to say that these are not useful tools, depending upon the context.
...


Thank you very much for advice. I wonder if "thinking" is really that bad if it is strictly about Dhamma (anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha, virāga, etc).

If thinking helps to develop wisdom and let go of all delusion and craving, than it is useful IMHO. Contemplation about aging, sickness, death, is contemplation about what actually will occur and does lead to maggaphala. Ex: AN5.57
Thinking/contemplation is a useful and necessary tool. I would not say otherwise.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:24 pm

As I see it, "abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence" is not the same as "seeing the nature of lust as it arises and falls". The former actively engages the appropriate aspects of Right Effort; this latter seems quite passive in comparison.

tiltbillings wrote:one does not need to go through all of that conceptually...


And yet,

MN 19 wrote:"Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with renunciation, abandoning thinking imbued with sensuality, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with renunciation. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with non-ill will, abandoning thinking imbued with ill will, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with non-ill will. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with harmlessness, abandoning thinking imbued with harmfulness, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with harmlessness.

"...If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.


Furthermore:

MN 19 wrote:Just as in the last month of the Rains, in the autumn season when the crops are ripening, a cowherd would look after his cows: He would tap & poke & check & curb them with a stick on this side & that. Why is that? Because he foresees flogging or imprisonment or a fine or public censure arising from that [if he let his cows wander into the crops]. In the same way I foresaw in unskillful qualities drawbacks, degradation, & defilement, and I foresaw in skillful qualities rewards related to renunciation & promoting cleansing...

"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply keeps himself mindful of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply kept myself mindful of 'those mental qualities.'


MN 20 wrote:Just as a skilled carpenter or his apprentice would use a small peg to knock out, drive out, and pull out a large one; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme, he should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.


The rest of MN 20 offers other similes for other methods, but nowhere is there a suggestion to just note lust, to see the nature of lust as it arises and falls.

:shrug:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:31 pm

daverupa wrote:As I see it, "abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence" is not the same as "seeing the nature of lust as it arises and falls". The former actively engages the appropriate aspects of Right Effort; this latter seems quite passive in comparison.
It may be passive, but it takes a fair amount of work to develop the concentration and mindfulness necessary. It may be passive, though it can take some considerable effort to not get lost in thought but to be attentive, and it is effective.

One question about "actively engaging" is that of motivation, which is not always apparent.

The rest of MN 20 offers other similes for other methods, but nowhere is there a suggestion to just note lust, to see the nature of lust as it arises and falls.
Try MN 10. You do not have to agree with me on this, but it works and works well.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:41 pm

daverupa wrote:As I see it, "abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence" is not the same as "seeing the nature of lust as it arises and falls".
Except that when one does see the impermanent, unsatisfactory and empty of self nature of what rises and falls by virtue of seeing in the rising and falling its impermanent, unsatisfactory and empty of self nature. In that there is nothing left to hang onto, and one could easily and correctly say it has been abandoned, destroyed, dispelled, wiped out existence as something to hang on to, as something with which to identify.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:52 am

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:As I see it, "abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence" is not the same as "seeing the nature of lust as it arises and falls".
Except that when one does see the impermanent, unsatisfactory and empty of self nature of what rises and falls by virtue of seeing in the rising and falling its impermanent, unsatisfactory and empty of self nature.


I recall that there are a number of references in the suttas to "seeing the danger", in other words if we see clearly how craving arises and where it leads, then there will naturally be a letting go of craving. So seeing clearly is the means, abandoning is the goal.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:29 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:As I see it, "abandoned it, destroyed it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence" is not the same as "seeing the nature of lust as it arises and falls".
Except that when one does see the impermanent, unsatisfactory and empty of self nature of what rises and falls by virtue of seeing in the rising and falling its impermanent, unsatisfactory and empty of self nature.


I recall that there are a number of references in the suttas to "seeing the danger", in other words if we see clearly how craving arises and where it leads, then there will naturally be a letting go of craving. So seeing clearly is the means, abandoning is the goal.

Spiny
Yes, I would say so. Thanks.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:51 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
Hi,

Are you saying it is the same citta that changes object?

It reminds me of the error of Sati, the son of a fisherman:


I don't understand why it reminds you of the consciousness transmigrating. :) I only said that the most we can see here is that the citta is changing. If something changes, then we don't cling (as something permanent)... full stop. There's nothing more that needs to said after that.


:anjali:[/quote]

By saying the citta is changing, do you mean it is the same citta that changes? If so, it is the same problem of Sati, the son of a fisherman, who thinks that it is the same citta which feels, hears, experiences different things.
If it is not so, that means there are ever anew citta arising with different objects, which was my point.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:31 pm

dhamma follower wrote:By saying the citta is changing, do you mean it is the same citta that changes?


Only if citta lasts two or more moments can that citta change. If citta has 0 duration then it cannot change. It has to endure for some time (at least 2 or 3 moments) in order for it to change.

"Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
alteration while staying = ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:51 am

Alex123 wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:By saying the citta is changing, do you mean it is the same citta that changes?


Only if citta lasts two or more moments can that citta change. If citta has 0 duration then it cannot change. It has to endure for some time (at least 2 or 3 moments) in order for it to change.

"Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
alteration while staying = ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ


It might be simpler to say that citta is constantly changing.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:24 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
beeblebrox wrote:I don't understand why it reminds you of the consciousness transmigrating. :) I only said that the most we can see here is that the citta is changing. If something changes, then we don't cling (as something permanent)... full stop. There's nothing more that needs to said after that.


By saying the citta is changing, do you mean it is the same citta that changes? If so, it is the same problem of Sati, the son of a fisherman, who thinks that it is the same citta which feels, hears, experiences different things.

If it is not so, that means there are ever anew citta arising with different objects, which was my point.



Hi, I think I'm starting to see now how Sati's error might have nothing to do with the transmigration itself... but the fact that he keeps on reading that into the Buddha's teaching. (Till the Buddha finally corrected him.) None of my posts said anything about the citta transmigrating.

I liked Alex's explanation above, by the way... though it probably seems like that his own version of citta is also transmigrating itself across the moments. Is that the correct way of reading it? Of course not. That is what the right view is for.

What would you call something that sees a series of moments rising and falling, in succession? (I.e., not just one moment after another, one at a time, where everything goes down along with it, every time... which would make it impossible to see a series of these moments?) A citta. The object in this case would be an object made up of moments.

If you take away that object, then this particular citta disappears. This is dependent origination... it has nothing to do with moments. (Or moments above that, or even bigger moments above these, and so on). Dependent arising is the only explanation that the Buddha gave, to correct Sati... by the way.

With the dependent origination, you only need to uncling once. (Or to put it more realistically... only once for every craving that you might have.) Not many millions of times per second. If someone ended his clinging to women as the only source of happiness, for example... this doesn't mean that he had to go out there and study every of the 3 or 4 billion women on this planet to end that clinging.

You seem to have an affinity with the D.O. (from a couple threads that I've read)... so I'll try to explain it in this way:

Ignorance (Which would be an ignorance of the 4NT... i.e., an ignorance of when a suffering is happening; an ignorance of what led to it; an ignorance of when it ends; and then finally an ignorance of what path led to that ending.)

Sankharas (For example, despite the best intentions, ideas about moments, citta, rapid arising and falling, etc. are taken up, and then clung to.)

Vinnana (A very particular consciousness then arises out of that contact with the sankharas... it's the one who will an affinity for perceiving the "rapid arising and falling of the moments.")

Nama-rupas (These sankharas, out of the consciousness, are concreted into the objects of names and forms.)

Six Sense Bases (The consciousness then gets divided, and gets organized according to these particular nama-rupas.)

Contact (This is when the contact can be discerned, between the senses and their objects... which in this case is revolving around the idea of a "rapid arising and falling of moments.")

Feeling (Does the contacts with these objects of the "moments arising and falling rapidly" feel pleasant, painful, or neutral?)

Craving (If you ever feel proud about being able to perceive these sankharas of the "moments arising and falling rapidly," then watch out.)

Clinging (These ideas about your ability to sense the "moments arising and falling rapidly" seem way too brilliant not to cling to...)

Becoming (An identity based around all of the above starts to be established.)

Birth (A "person" who is able to perceive and then talk about the "rapid succession of the moments" then gets born.)

Decaying and Death (Why? Because the view of this person is absolutely dependent on there being "moments rapidly rising and falling", that's why... which will absolutely disintegrate in the face of whatever different experiences that "other people" might have... causing dukkha in the process.)


It's really all about dependent origination... all the way through.

:anjali:
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:05 am

dhamma follower wrote:By saying the citta is changing, do you mean it is the same citta that changes? If so, it is the same problem of Sati, the son of a fisherman, who thinks that it is the same citta which feels, hears, experiences different things.
If it is not so, that means there are ever anew citta arising with different objects, which was my point.


Might it be simpler to say that citta is subject to anatta?

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Sylvester » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:02 am

Something new from Ven Analayo -

The Dantabhumi Sutta and its Madhyama-agama parallel continue with satipatthana practice undertaken without thinking certain thoughts. The Pali editions differ on the nature of these thoughts, as some editions speak of not thinking thoughts related to sensuality, while others instruct not to think thoughts related to the four objects of satipatthana practice, that is body, feelings, mental states, and dharmas. 167

167 Ee – MN III 136, 21 and Se –MN III 269, 16 instruct, in relation to contemplation of the body : “do not think a thought related to the body”, ma ca kayupasamhitam vitakkam vitakkesi, and continue in the same way for the remaining 3 satipatthanas by enjoining ma vedanupasamhitam vitakkam …ma cittupasamhitam vitakkam … ma dhammupasamhitam vitakkam vitakkesi. Be – MN III 175,20 and Ce – MN III 316,16 instead instruct in all four cases : “do not think a thought related to sensuality”, ma ca kamupasamhitam vitakkam vitakkesi. …


from his "A Comparative Study of the Majjhima-nikaya", Vol 2, p 719.

The suggestion seems to be that 2 of the Pali editions might have been influenced by the presentation in the Madhyama-agama's allowance for samma vayama working in the satipatthana practices, given the Madhyama-agama's slightly different presentation of satipatthana immediately after sila, unlike the MN presentation of satipatthana following the longer DN 2 model.

Going by the other variant readings, it does appear that it is normative for well-established (supatitthita) satipatthana to be silent and passive.

What's quite amazing is that the Burmese lineage could arrive at this approach, when it appears that they did not have access to the variant reading.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:17 pm

Sylvester wrote:.

What's quite amazing is that the Burmese lineage could arrive at this approach, when it appears that they did not have access to the variant reading.
What the Burmese vipassana lineage had was actual practice, not just theory. These guys were not dummies.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:50 pm

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:What's quite amazing is that the Burmese lineage could arrive at this approach, when it appears that they did not have access to the variant reading.
What the Burmese vipassana lineage had was actual practice, not just theory.

Moreover, anyone who does any form of satipatthana comes to find that as the depth of concentration evolves, verbal formations will be seen as comparatively gross, and ought to be abandoned, even if they had yielded benefits earlier in supporting that concentration in the first place. As someone said in one of these meditation topics recently, the meditation practice (and Dhamma practice in general) is about removing layers, rather than adding them. This also involves removing the supports for what may have previously been useful, but presently serves as a hindrance to further refinement of the mind.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby dhamma follower » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:19 am

beeblebrox wrote:

What would you call something that sees a series of moments rising and falling, in succession? (I.e., not just one moment after another, one at a time, where everything goes down along with it, every time... which would make it impossible to see a series of these moments?) A citta. The object in this case would be an object made up of moments.


:anjali:


It is panna in tandem with sati-sampajana that sees the rise and fall. Citta arises and falls with any object all the time, but if sati-sampajana is not sharp enough, there is no chance for panna to arise and understand the impermanent nature of composed things.

I have discussed how D.O supports the idea of successive rise and fall of dhammas in another thread. It will be pointless to say it again and again.

It's really all about dependent origination... all the way through


If you apply it into this very moment? What you see? seeing rises and falls, hearing rise and falls, feeling rises and falls, thinking rises and falls...It is also the way out of samsara, another important meaning of D.O

But we don't have to agree :-)

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby Brizzy » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:21 am

Samvega wrote:3.4 Sati Imagery

.................Sati must be differentiated from right effort. Sati never actually intervenes with any thought processes. It serves only the role of a detached and aloof observer. The purpose of sati is to make things conscious, not to elminate them................................

...............The reason that Jhana alone is not sufficient by itself for liberating insight is because by its nature of restrictive focus, it inhibits the passive observational qualities of broad awareness needed to become aware of those qualities of experience that lead to insight. This shouldn't be contrued to say that Jhana is detrimental, however, because the abundance of evidence indicates that in fact the opposite is true.


Sati is definitely different from right effort, however sati without right effort is not the path. Right effort has to be there in your meditation, otherwise it becomes a concentration game.

You are correct that the jhana you describe is not sufficient (wrong jhana) for liberating insight. However I cannot find this jhana being described within the suttas. The jhana described in the suttas DOES have broad awareness and DOES allow investigation, discernment and in fact does lead to liberating insight. The view that jhana is not an integral part of the path to liberating insight is half right, simply because these statements are founded upon a wrong view of jhana. Right jhana is part of the path. We cannot cherry pick parts of the path just to suit our selves. It is a bit like right action, we could argue and stretch this part of the path to include 'mercy killing' and then suddenly we have 'access action', which is not really right action but is close enough, so we count that as fulfilling that part of the path. Or we only tell 'white' lies, so we have 'access speech'. Or we end up trying to redefine aspects of the path, so right effort becomes energetic striving or intense concentration becomes viewed as right samadhi. All we get is a wrong path.

Metta

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:25 am

Brizzy wrote:The view that jhana is not an integral part of the path to liberating insight is half right, simply because these statements are founded upon a wrong view of jhana. Right jhana is part of the path. We cannot cherry pick parts of the path just to suit our selves.
But, of course, it all depends upon what is meant the word jhana. Fortunately, I know of no meditative tradition within the Theravada that rejects right jhana.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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