dhamma follower wrote: beeblebrox wrote:
I don't understand why it reminds you of the consciousness transmigrating.
I only said that the most we can see here is that the citta is changing. If something changes, then we don't cling (as something permanent)... full stop. There's nothing more that needs to said after that.
By saying the citta is changing, do you mean it is the same citta that changes? If so, it is the same problem of Sati, the son of a fisherman, who thinks that it is the same citta which feels, hears, experiences different things.
If it is not so, that means there are ever anew citta arising with different objects, which was my point.
Hi, I think I'm starting to see now how Sati's error might have nothing to do with the transmigration itself... but the fact that he keeps on reading that into the Buddha's teaching. (Till the Buddha finally corrected him.) None of my posts said anything about the citta transmigrating.
I liked Alex's explanation above, by the way... though it probably seems like that his own version of citta is also transmigrating itself across the moments. Is that the correct way of reading it? Of course not. That is what the right view is for.
What would you call something that sees a series of moments rising and falling, in succession? (I.e., not just one moment after another, one at a time, where everything goes down along with it, every time... which would make it impossible to see a series of these moments?) A citta. The object in this case would be an object made up of moments.
If you take away that object, then this particular citta disappears. This is dependent origination... it has nothing to do with moments. (Or moments above that, or even bigger moments above these, and so on). Dependent arising is the only explanation that the Buddha gave, to correct Sati... by the way.
With the dependent origination, you only need to uncling once. (Or to put it more realistically... only once for every craving that you might have.) Not many millions of times per second. If someone ended his clinging to women as the only source of happiness, for example... this doesn't mean that he had to go out there and study every of the 3 or 4 billion women on this planet to end that clinging.
You seem to have an affinity with the D.O. (from a couple threads that I've read)... so I'll try to explain it in this way:
Ignorance (Which would be an ignorance of the 4NT... i.e., an ignorance of when a suffering is happening; an ignorance of what led to it; an ignorance of when it ends; and then finally an ignorance of what path led to that ending.)
Sankharas (For example, despite the best intentions, ideas about moments, citta, rapid arising and falling, etc. are taken up, and then clung to.)
Vinnana (A very particular consciousness then arises out of that contact with the sankharas... it's the one who will an affinity for perceiving the "rapid arising and falling of the moments.")
Nama-rupas (These sankharas, out of the consciousness, are concreted into the objects of names and forms.)
Six Sense Bases (The consciousness then gets divided, and gets organized according to these particular nama-rupas.)
Contact (This is when the contact can be discerned, between the senses and their objects... which in this case is revolving around the idea of a "rapid arising and falling of moments.")
Feeling (Does the contacts with these objects of the "moments arising and falling rapidly" feel pleasant, painful, or neutral?)
Craving (If you ever feel proud about being able to perceive these sankharas of the "moments arising and falling rapidly," then watch out.)
Clinging (These ideas about your ability to sense the "moments arising and falling rapidly" seem way too brilliant not to cling to...)
Becoming (An identity based around all of the above starts to be established.)
Birth (A "person" who is able to perceive and then talk about the "rapid succession of the moments" then gets born.)
Decaying and Death (Why? Because the view of this person is absolutely dependent on there being "moments rapidly rising and falling", that's why... which will absolutely disintegrate in the face of whatever different experiences that "other people" might have... causing dukkha in the process.)
It's really all about dependent origination... all the way through.