Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:56 am

Hi Dhamma Follower,

dhamma follower wrote:While I totally agree with all of the above, I still think that "to remember to abandon the unskillful and remain in skillful" is only one aspect of sati. Otherwise, how would you make sense of the way sati is described in sati patthana?


Unfortunately, sati itself isn't described in Satipatthana sutta, which describes only the four sati-upatthana, the ways of establishing sati.

Sati as attending to the working of the five khandas is clearly also as important.


Would you please give a reference?

Also, in vipassana stages, skillful and unskillful don't apply anymore, as there is only perception of paramatha, rise and fall, the three marks etc..., what is the role of sati then ?


Why the skillful and unskillful don't apply anymore? The ability to distinguish them is the essence of dhamma-vicaya factor of Awakening. And the fourfold Right Effort is based on abandoning the unskillful and developing the skillful.

Over and over again Buddha calls for shedding unskillful and developing the skillful. This is the essence of his teaching.

"When a disciple of the noble ones discerns what is unskillful in this way, discerns the root of what is unskillful in this way, discerns what is skillful in this way, and discerns the root of what is skillful in this way, when — having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:05 am

Hi Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:So, what you are describing as a practice is a practice that is solely and completely conceptual in its structure. In other words, one thinks oneself to awakening.


What I describe is Buddha's teaching:

"Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.'

"Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Non-conceptual" vs "conceptual" discrimination reminds me of Krishnamurti, Advaita and the like.
In the Buddha's teaching the concepts are used, and there's nothing wrong with that.

"Upali, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities do not lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, nor to Unbinding': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:09 am

Hi Zom,

Zom wrote:So - as far as I understood - everyone agrees that "awareness in/to the present moment " is a vital part of meditation ,)
So the only disputable point is how to call this awareness - "sati" or not "sati" (or - "included into sati")? Does that really matter?


This does matter, because when "sati' is deemed the same as "sampajanna" (awareness), it is eventually lost, and only "sampajanna" remains.

Best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:12 am

Dmytro wrote:This does matter, because when "sati' is deemed the same as "sampajanna" (awareness), it is eventually lost, and only "sampajanna" remains.
Says who?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:33 am

Hi Dukkhanirodha,

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Sati, in the context of satipatthana, instead of past events recollection, denotes remembrance
:thinking:
Then can you explain how sati is to be understood as remembrance in the following context?

SN 47.40 wrote:Katamā ca bhikkhave, satipaṭṭhāna-bhāvana? idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu samudaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ. Vaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ. Samudaya-vaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ.

And what, bhikkhus, is the bhāvana of the satipaṭṭhānas? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells observing the phenomenon of arising in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world. He dwells observing the phenomenon of passing away in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world. He dwells observing the phenomena of arising and passing away in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world.

http://www.suttapitaka.net/sutta/samyut ... tipatthana


This passage describes the development of the first satipatthana, and doesn't describe the sati itself. The meaning of sati as remembrance is described in other suttas:

"And what is the faculty of remembrance? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is endowed with memory, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago."

Indriya-Vibhanga sutta, (SN V 197-8 )

to be noted that this paragraph applies without restriction to sati, because the definition of being sato (endowed with sati) and satipaṭṭhāna are identical: the proof here and there.


Indeed "sato" is indeed defined in the Mahaparinibbana sutta through four satipatthanas. That doesn't mean that the words "sati" and "satipatthana" mean the same thing.

See, for example, the forementioned passage:

[The Buddha:]
Mindfully focused on nothingness, relying on 'There isn't,' you should cross over the flood.

1074. Ākiñcaññaṃ pekkhamāno satimā (upasivāti bhagavā)
Natthīti nissāya tarassu oghaṃ.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The "observing" (anupassana) in the satipatthana definition relates to sampajanna, and not to sati, as explained in Vibhanga:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9941&start=60#p160603

:anjali:
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:39 am

Hi Chownah,

chownah wrote:It seems that a major point of concern here has been whether being mindful of the present moment is sati....or not. My question is if one is truly in the present moment that what else could they be aware of if not body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects? In the exact present moment what else could there be?


One of the applications of sati is recollection (anussati) of specific subjects, for example:

"Mahanama, you should develop this recollection (anussati) of the Buddha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:59 am

Hi Dukkhanirodha,

Dukkhanirodha wrote:How could it be possible to set remembrance on any spot of the body?


Be it for bad or for good, but without the early exegetical texts and the Commentary we can only guess what some Sutta passages mean.

Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509

Teachers in the traditions of Acarn Lee Dhammadharo and Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw are able to describe the arising of nimitta "patimukham" in more detail.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Dmytro » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:14 am

Hi TMingyur,

TMingyur wrote:Yes. I would equate remembrance to re-cognition. Re-cognition of a pattern in bare chaotic sense data requires remembrance. And that certainly cannot be called "thinking" because it happens sort of "spontaneously", like a flash ... but it is remembrance of a pattern learned earlier.


The hidden fallacy of "just present moment awareness" is that the recognition (sanna) always has a context - we perceive phenomena in the context of other things we have in mind. E.g. when we are looking for a particular person, we see the aspects similar to his features in all the people. Without a clearly set context, our recognition is tuned to random things that pop up in the mind.

"Sati" provides a context for "sampajanna" - we perceive what's happening in the present moment, keeping in mind the task to abandon the unskillful and develop the skillful.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:21 am

Dmytro wrote:The hidden fallacy of "just present moment awareness" . . . .
The problem is that who knows what you actually mean by "just present moment awareness." Your acounting of "bare attention," of Ven Analasyo's postion and such do not seem to accurately reflect what these things are in terms of how they are understood by those who have written about it, such as Vens Analayo and Bodhi. I am still waiting for an actual critique of Ven Analayo's views.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby ground » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:21 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi TMingyur,

TMingyur wrote:Yes. I would equate remembrance to re-cognition. Re-cognition of a pattern in bare chaotic sense data requires remembrance. And that certainly cannot be called "thinking" because it happens sort of "spontaneously", like a flash ... but it is remembrance of a pattern learned earlier.


The hidden fallacy of "just present moment awareness" is that the recognition (sanna) always has a context - we perceive phenomena in the context of other things we have in mind. E.g. when we are looking for a particular person, we see the aspects similar to his features in all the people. Without a clearly set context, our recognition is tuned to random things that pop up in the mind.

"Sati" provides a context for "sampajanna" - we perceive what's happening in the present moment, keeping in mind the task to abandon the unskillful and develop the skillful.


Hi Dmytro

I think we agree and that what you are saying corresponds to what I tried to express here except that I do not agree with your "keeping in mind the task to abandon the unskillful and develop the skillful". Instead from my perspective what is kept in mind is the mere pattern to be re-cognized (i.e. without any further judgment and intention).

kind regards
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Sekha » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:33 pm

Dmytro wrote:
SN 47.40 wrote:Katamā ca bhikkhave, satipaṭṭhāna-bhāvana? idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu samudaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ. Vaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ. Samudaya-vaya-dhamm'ānupassī kāyasmiṃ viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ.

And what, bhikkhus, is the bhāvana of the satipaṭṭhānas? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells observing the phenomenon of arising in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world. He dwells observing the phenomenon of passing away in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world. He dwells observing the phenomena of arising and passing away in kāya, ātāpī sampajāno satimā, having given up abhijjhā-domanassa towards the world.

http://www.suttapitaka.net/sutta/samyut ... tipatthana


This passage describes the development of the first satipatthana, and doesn't describe the sati itself. The meaning of sati as remembrance is described in other suttas:

"And what is the faculty of remembrance? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is endowed with memory, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago."

Indriya-Vibhanga sutta, (SN V 197-8 )

Do you mean to say you consider that the word sati can have only one meaning? If you do, I am curious to know on which ground.


Dmytro wrote:
to be noted that this paragraph applies without restriction to sati, because the definition of being sato (endowed with sati) and satipaṭṭhāna are identical: the proof here and there.


Indeed "sato" is indeed defined in the Mahaparinibbana sutta through four satipatthanas. That doesn't mean that the words "sati" and "satipatthana" mean the same thing.

I have not said such a thing. I said that the paragraph I quoted was applicable to sati as a description of it. It does not necessarily mean I consider that sati has only one meaning and that I take this one as the only one, which seems to be your problem with this word, grasping at its other meaning. My position is actually the following:

sati: the term has two meanings which, although apparently opposed are actually related:
1) awareness, attention, mindfulness, fact of being clearly conscious/ vigilant. It is one of the seven bojjhaṅgas, said to be the most important because the other six are to be developed along with it. The standard defintion of sammā-sati, given for example at SN 45.8, actually consists of the description of the four satipaṭṭhānas. Sati is one of the five spiritual indriyas and the five balas. Sati as one of the five balas is defined at AN 5.14.
2) memory, recollection. This aspect of sati is actually also covered by the definition given at AN 5.14.
These two meanings are related in the sense that an awareness supported by the collectedness of concentration is a necessary condition to get proper perception and understanding of what is happening in the present moment, which enables an easy recollection at a later time of what precisely was happening, of what was said, what was done at a prior moment, even a long time before.
http://www.suttapitaka.net/glossary.html#sati

So I think the two meanings of sati are just two different angles on the same mental attitude. In one case sati is defined as per what is happening in the present moment, and in the other as per the qualities that develop in the bhikkhu when he has been endowed with this awareness of the present moment for a long time.



Dmytro wrote:The "observing" (anupassana) in the satipatthana definition relates to sampajanna, and not to sati, as explained in Vibhanga:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p160603

This is too far in interpretations for me. Sorry for this tautology, but I don't see any other way to explain the evidence: The "observing" (anupassana) in the satipatthana definition is used to define how one pratices satipatthana, that is how one develops sati (whichever way you understand upatthana), and therefore applies also to sati.

I hope you won't get angry at speaking so plainly, but it seems the problem is that you take the abhidhamma as word of the bible and you neglect common sense understanding.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Sekha » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:47 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:How could it be possible to set remembrance on any spot of the body?


Be it for bad or for good, but without the early exegetical texts and the Commentary we can only guess what some Sutta passages mean.

So you just revealed what lies in the background of all the views you express. I do not believe that this is necessarily the case.

Dmytro wrote:Pakatiassāsapakatipassāse nissāya uppannanimittampi assāsapassāsāti nāmaṃ labhati. Upaṭṭhānaṃ satīti taṃ ārammaṇaṃ upecca tiṭṭhatīti sati upaṭṭhānaṃ nāma.

'Sati upaṭṭhāna' means that 'sati', having approached, stays on that basis of concentration (ārammaṇa) (i.e. the perceptual image (nimitta) which has arisen due to natural in-and-out-breath).

Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 2.509

Teachers in the traditions of Acarn Lee Dhammadharo and Ven. Pa Auk Sayadaw are able to describe the arising of nimitta "patimukham" in more detail.

Again, you rely on the commentary and neglect simple common sense understanding. Result: you transform the words of the Buddha in something hardly intellegible by any non-scholar whereas there is a very simple explanation that makes fully sense for practitioners. I believe the Buddha taught for the second category of persons, not the first. And by the way, Pa Auk Sayadaw translates sati by "mindfulness", the proof here under The Noble Eightfold Path.

:anjali:
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http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby ancientbuddhism » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:59 pm

Zom wrote:So - as far as I understood - everyone agrees that "awareness in/to the present moment " is a vital part of meditation ,)
So the only disputable point is how to call this awareness - "sati" or not "sati" (or - "included into sati")? Does that really matter?


I'm not sure I agree with what everyone would invest in what 'present moment awareness' means. For me I can agree that it is an awareness being present (sati) with what is happening (sampajāna) with objects as they change, but that may not strictly be present in the understanding of others.

What one calls sati matters little compared to understanding its context and function.

Tasmātiha tvaṃ, ānanda, idampi tathāgatassa acchariyaṃ abbhutadhammaṃ dhārehi. idhānanda, tathāgatassa viditā vedanā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti; viditā saññā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti; viditā vitakkā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.”

“ Therefore, Ānanda, you should also bear (in mind) this wonderful and marvelous characteristic of the Tathāgata; He knows the arising of sensations of feeling, knows their presence, and knows when they have vanished; He knows the arising of sense perceptions, knows their presence, and knows when they have vanished; He knows the arising of thoughts, knows their presence, and knows when they have vanished.” – MN.3.3.3 (123) (Acchariyābbhuta Sutta)

This would indicate a knowing of vedana-, citta- and dhammānupassī in the same process of examination.

Dmytro wrote:Hi Zom,This does matter, because when "sati' is deemed the same as "sampajanna" (awareness), it is eventually lost, and only "sampajanna" remains.

Best wishes, Dmytro


anupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. (MN.10.uddesa)

ātāpa, sampajāna and sati are a part of the same dynamic of contemplative work in satipaṭṭhāna.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:12 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:My position is actually the following:

sati: the term has two meanings which, although apparently opposed are actually related:
1) awareness, attention, mindfulness, fact of being clearly conscious/ vigilant. It is one of the seven bojjhaṅgas, said to be the most important because the other six are to be developed along with it. The standard defintion of sammā-sati, given for example at SN 45.8, actually consists of the description of the four satipaṭṭhānas. Sati is one of the five spiritual indriyas and the five balas. Sati as one of the five balas is defined at AN 5.14.
2) memory, recollection. This aspect of sati is actually also covered by the definition given at AN 5.14.
These two meanings are related in the sense that an awareness supported by the collectedness of concentration is a necessary condition to get proper perception and understanding of what is happening in the present moment, which enables an easy recollection at a later time of what precisely was happening, of what was said, what was done at a prior moment, even a long time before.
http://www.suttapitaka.net/glossary.html#sati

This is a good example of the now rather common conflation of sati and sampajañña.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Dmytro wrote:The "observing" (anupassana) in the satipatthana definition relates to sampajanna, and not to sati, as explained in Vibhanga:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9941&start=60#p160603

This is too far in interpretations for me.

Why? It's straight out of the Vibhaṅga, which gives the following word analysis for mental qualities of being ardent (ātāpī), fully aware (sampajāna), and mindful (satimā):

    “Ardent”. Herein, what is ardour? Whatever mental exercise of effort, exertion, great exertion, enterprise, endeavour, attempt, travail, vigour, courage, exertion that is not lax, not putting aside of (wholesome) desire, not putting aside of responsibility, being taken up with responsibility, effort, the Faculty of Effort, the Strength of Effort, Right Endeavour – this is called “ardour”. With this ardour he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “ardent” is said.

    “Full awareness”. Herein, what is full awareness? That which is wisdom, knowing, investigation, deep investigation, investigation of (the nature of) things, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, skilfulness, subtlety, clarification, thoughtfulness, consideration, breadth, intelligence, guidance, insight, full awareness, examination, wisdom, the Faculty of Wisdom, the Strength of Wisdom, the sword of wisdom, height of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, flame of wisdom, treasure of wisdom, non-delusion, investigation of (the nature of) things, Right View – this is called “full awareness”. With this full awareness he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “full awareness” is said.

    “Mindful”. Herein, what is mindfulness? That which is mindfulness, recollection, recall, mindfulness, remembrance, bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing, mindfulness, the Faculty of Mindfulness, the Strength of Mindfulness, Right Mindfulness – this is called “mindfulness”. With this mindfulness he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “mindful” is said.

This definition of sati fully accords with both earlier and later Pāli sources. The awakening factor of sati is explained in SN 46.3 Sīla Sutta as the recollection of the teaching heard from accomplished monks:

    Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects the dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, monks, a monk dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the awakening factor of mindfulness is aroused by the monk, on that occasion the monk develops the awakening factor of mindfulness, on that occasion the awakening factor of mindfulness comes to fulfillment through development in the monk.

The faculty of sati is defined in SN 48.9 Paṭhamavibhaṅga Sutta as follows:

    Here, monks, a noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and discretion, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said long ago. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.

And as already mentioned, the Milindapañha explains sati as follows:

    “What, Nāgasena, is the characteristic mark of mindfulness?”

    “Noting and keeping in mind. As mindfulness springs up in the mind of the recluse, he repeatedly notes the wholesome and unwholesome, blameless and blameworthy, insignificant and important, dark and light qualities and those that resemble them thinking, ‘These are the four foundations of mindfulness, these the four right efforts, these the four bases of success, these the five controlling faculties, these the five moral powers, these the seven factors of enlightenment, these are the eight factors of the noble path, this is serenity, this insight, this vision and this freedom.’ Thus does he cultivate those qualities that are desirable and shun those that should be avoided.”...

    “How is keeping in mind a mark of mindfulness?”

    “As mindfulness springs up in the mind, he searches out the categories of good qualities and their opposites thinking, ‘Such and such qualities are beneficial and such are harmful’. Thus does he make what is unwholesome in himself disappear and maintain what is good.”

Dukkhanirodha wrote:I hope you won't get angry at speaking so plainly, but it seems the problem is that you take the abhidhamma as word of the bible and you neglect common sense understanding.

When we see this level of accord among the suttas, the canonical abhidhamma texts, and the early para-canonical treatises, then there is no reason to dismiss what they are saying. Rather, it's incumbent upon us to reassess our own opinions on the matter.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby dhamma follower » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:27 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Dhamma Follower,

dhamma follower wrote:While I totally agree with all of the above, I still think that "to remember to abandon the unskillful and remain in skillful" is only one aspect of sati. Otherwise, how would you make sense of the way sati is described in sati patthana?


Unfortunately, sati itself isn't described in Satipatthana sutta, which describes only the four sati-upatthana, the ways of establishing sati.

Best wishes, Dmytro


In this sutta, this is how samma sati is defined:

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The Buddha seemingly taught the Maha Satipatthana sutta for a larger purpose than you presumed (establishing sati):

373. Bhikkhus,[1] this is the one and only way for the purification[2] of beings, for overcoming sorrow and lamentation, for the complete destruction of pain[3] and distress,[4] for attainment of the Noble Path,[5] and for the realization of Nibbāna. That[6] is the practice of the four methods of Steadfast Mindfulness.[7]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bpit.html


"Sati as attending to the working of the five khandas is clearly also as important."

Would you please give a reference?


Maha-Satipatthana sutta.
Kaya, Vedana, Citta, Dhamma (part of) belong to the five khandas.

Also, in vipassana stages, skillful and unskillful don't apply anymore, as there is only perception of paramatha, rise and fall, the three marks etc..., what is the role of sati then ?

Why the skillful and unskillful don't apply anymore? The ability to distinguish them is the essence of dhamma-vicaya factor of Awakening. And the fourfold Right Effort is based on abandoning the unskillful and developing the skillful.


because at this stage, both the wholesome and unwholesome dhammas reveal their universal characteristics, be it good or bad, they all arise and pass away.

My understanding is this: sati as remembering to distinguish the skillful and unskillful apply to the first stages, where one has to remember what has been taught, or understood intellectually about the wholesome and unwholesome. As one follows the instruction given in the Mahasatipatthana, one turns attention inward to Kaya - Vedana- Citta- Dhamma, sati starts to "remember" reality as they arise instead of learnt concepts, although concepts are still much involved. When sampajana becomes stronger and stronger, it can see sati "remembers" details of reality (sabhava) then gradually the tilakkhana becomes predominant, Tilakkhana is not remembered, but understood by panna. This remembering of reality as they arise is not the same than remembering learnt concepts where sanna is involved.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Sekha » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:My position is actually the following:

sati: the term has two meanings which, although apparently opposed are actually related:
1) awareness, attention, mindfulness, fact of being clearly conscious/ vigilant. It is one of the seven bojjhaṅgas, said to be the most important because the other six are to be developed along with it. The standard defintion of sammā-sati, given for example at SN 45.8, actually consists of the description of the four satipaṭṭhānas. Sati is one of the five spiritual indriyas and the five balas. Sati as one of the five balas is defined at AN 5.14.
2) memory, recollection. This aspect of sati is actually also covered by the definition given at AN 5.14.
These two meanings are related in the sense that an awareness supported by the collectedness of concentration is a necessary condition to get proper perception and understanding of what is happening in the present moment, which enables an easy recollection at a later time of what precisely was happening, of what was said, what was done at a prior moment, even a long time before.
http://www.suttapitaka.net/glossary.html#sati

This is a good example of the now rather common conflation of sati and sampajañña.

Sorry but there is no basis for this assertion of yours. I will be grateful if you can explain me in which way I do so. Here is what I consider sampajañña to be:

sampajañña: thorough understanding, constant discernment of impermanence. The term is derived from the verb jaññā (to know, to undertand) and intensified by the addition of the intensifying prefix pa- and then, of the prefix sam- which denotes the completeness (or here the constance) of the action. The term appears in the vast majority of cases in combination with sati, either as two separated words or in the compound satisampajañña. There is no definition of sampajañña alone, but a definition of satisampajañña is found at AN 8.9: it is identical with the definition of sampajāno given at SN 47.35.
http://www.suttapitaka.net/glossary.html#sampajanna

Katha'ñca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajāno hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno viditā vedanā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Viditā vitakkā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Viditā saññā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajāno hoti.

And how, bhikkhus, is a Bhikkhu sampajāno? Here, bhikkhus, the vedanās arise being known by a bhikkhu, they persist being known, they pass away being known. The vitakkās arise being known by a bhikkhu, they persist being known, they pass away being known. The saññās arise being known by a bhikkhu, they persist being known, they pass away being known. In this way, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is sampajāno.


Ñāṇa wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Dmytro wrote:The "observing" (anupassana) in the satipatthana definition relates to sampajanna, and not to sati, as explained in Vibhanga:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p160603

This is too far in interpretations for me.

Why? It's straight out of the Vibhaṅga, which gives the following word analysis for mental qualities of being ardent (ātāpī), fully aware (sampajāna), and mindful (satimā):

(...)
“Mindful”. Herein, what is mindfulness? That which is mindfulness, recollection, recall, mindfulness, remembrance, bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing, mindfulness, the Faculty of Mindfulness, the Strength of Mindfulness, Right Mindfulness – this is called “mindfulness”. With this mindfulness he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “mindful” is said.

1) You are not to-the-point. We are not discussing the meaning of these three words, only the meaning of sati

2) Apparently you did not understand what Dmytro meant in his sentence 'The "observing" (anupassana) in the satipatthana definition relates to sampajanna, and not to sati', because it refers to earlier messages you are not bearing in mind. He meant to say that my point about the practice of sati consisting in observing the arising and passing away of phenomena and thus in being aware of what is happening in the present moment (versus recollecting past phenomena), as described in the formula defining the satipatthanas is invalid because 'anupassi' in (for example) vaya-dhamm'anupassi viharati would refer to sampajanna and not to sati.

3) Please provide the Pali source along with the english translation. We are discussing acute translation problems, so we need to be precise on what is said in the original texts.

4) If I take the definition of sati as given in the english translation of the Vibhanga you provided, it seems that I agree with it, since it defines it as meaning both recollection (of the past, apparently) and mindfulness (of the present, apparently). So there is no point in your trying to be "against" what I am saying here.

5) similarly, I agree with the points you make in your other quotations, where sati means either recollection or mindfulness. Which makes me wonder if you are really trying to demonstrate anything.


Ñāṇa wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:I hope you won't get angry at speaking so plainly, but it seems the problem is that you take the abhidhamma as word of the bible and you neglect common sense understanding.

When we see this level of accord among the suttas, the canonical abhidhamma texts, and the early para-canonical treatises, then there is no reason to dismiss what they are saying. Rather, it's incumbent upon us to reassess our own opinions on the matter.

Irrelevant.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Sekha » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:13 pm

Dmytro wrote:Unfortunately, sati itself isn't described in Satipatthana sutta, which describes only the four sati-upatthana, the ways of establishing sati.

Trying to split the meaning of the words by making such distinctions doesn't make any sense. Satipatthana, sato and samma-sati are all defined by the same formula(quoted by dhamma follower above), in which it is clear that they all work as awareness of what is happening in the present moment :

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammāsati? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ; citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ; dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ.

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


There is no way that the meaning of sati would be totally disconnected from this definition, and so from the awareness of what is happening in the present moment.

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby ancientbuddhism » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:24 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:Why? It's straight out of the Vibhaṅga, which gives the following word analysis for mental qualities of being ardent (ātāpī), fully aware (sampajāna), and mindful (satimā):

(...)
“Mindful”. Herein, what is mindfulness? That which is mindfulness, recollection, recall, mindfulness, remembrance, bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing, mindfulness, the Faculty of Mindfulness, the Strength of Mindfulness, Right Mindfulness – this is called “mindfulness”. With this mindfulness he is endowed, truly endowed, having attained, truly attained, being possessed, truly possessed, furnished (with it). Because of this “mindful” is said.


Dukkhanirodha wrote: 1) You are not to-the-point. We are not discussing the meaning of these three words, only the meaning of sati


You may not be seeing the wood for the trees here, 'these three words' represents the context for understanding sati in Satipaṭṭhāna.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Zom » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:07 pm

This does matter, because when "sati' is deemed the same as "sampajanna" (awareness), it is eventually lost, and only "sampajanna" remains.


And no - if we take sampajanna as a characteristic of sati ,)
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:08 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:This is a good example of the now rather common conflation of sati and sampajañña.

Sorry but there is no basis for this assertion of yours.

Of course there is. Both according to the Vibhaṅga as well as SN 47.35. Sati is not synonymous with sampajañña and sampajañña is not synonymous with sati.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:1) You are not to-the-point. We are not discussing the meaning of these three words, only the meaning of sati

All the Pāli sources I've provided give the meaning of sati.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:2) Apparently you did not understand what Dmytro meant in his sentence 'The "observing" (anupassana) in the satipatthana definition relates to sampajanna, and not to sati', because it refers to earlier messages you are not bearing in mind.

I did understand, and already provided a link to a bilingual version of the Satipaṭṭhānavibhaṅga in an earlier post. I was hopeful that you would take it upon yourself to do some leg work and study these ancient Pāli source materials.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:3) Please provide the Pali source along with the english translation. We are discussing acute translation problems, so we need to be precise on what is said in the original texts.

See above link. Half way down that page is the Padabhājanīya (Word Analysis) which explicitly deals with anupassī, ātāpī, sampajāna, and satimā. You will notice that the definition of anupassī is the same as that of sampajāna just as Dmytro has said.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:4) If I take the definition of sati as given in the english translation of the Vibhanga you provided, it seems that I agree with it, since it defines it as meaning both recollection (of the past, apparently) and mindfulness (of the present, apparently). So there is no point in your trying to be "against" what I am saying here.

5) similarly, I agree with the points you make in your other quotations, where sati means either recollection or mindfulness. Which makes me wonder if you are really trying to demonstrate anything.

Your failure to appreciate the subtleties of what is under discussion is your issue and no one else's.

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:When we see this level of accord among the suttas, the canonical abhidhamma texts, and the early para-canonical treatises, then there is no reason to dismiss what they are saying. Rather, it's incumbent upon us to reassess our own opinions on the matter.

Irrelevant.

Actually, it's quite relevant whether you acknowledge its relevance or not. The Pāli Tipiṭaka is a better and more authoritative source than your opinions.
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