Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:43 am

chownah wrote:Knowing things to be true is ignorance...so of course I DON"T know things to be true

How is it that knowing things to be true is ignorance?
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby chownah » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:17 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
chownah wrote:Concerning matter it seems that the current wisdom in particle physics is that in fact all matter is so composed.

Haven't most particles been around since shortly after the big bang?

That is a very good question but I think the answer is no.....but I have never thought about this before or heard anything that addressed this idea so I may be wrong. Most of what were thought to be basic particles when I was in grade school are now considered to be made up of smaller particles and when these basic particles interact there are other particles which come into and out of existence to facilitate the interactions....I think....I'm a rice farmer.
When stars collapse under their own weight they can get to the point where the electrons and protons get smashed together to make neutrons at which point I guess the protons and electrons no longer exist and a new neutron particle is produced....this process is happening all the time. When scientists smash particles together in accelerators it breaks them into pieces most of which only exist for a fraction of a second before they either interact with other particles or decay into other particles which eventually interact with other particles so you've got a very dynamic process going on and particles are being created and destroyed very rapidly. If photons are considered to be particles then they are being created all the time...photons is what light is made of so every star is making them at huge rates as well as in light bulbs everytime you turn them on.....they are destroyed when the light strikes an object and is absorbed.....the eye's object is light being absorbed by the retina of the eye so vision is a result of the destruction of photons I guess. And there is the relatively new idea that the vacuum is alive with particle which are spontaneously coming into an going out of existence at incredible rates all the time.....by the way....these particles theorized to arise and decay in the vacuum have been considered to be only theoretic but recently it was reported that experimental evidence has shown of their actual existence but so far this finding has not been verified as far as I know. Then there is dark matter which is a very new idea and about which nothing is known....not to mention even murkier dark energy which is what is supposed to be pushing the universe to expand it.....
But your question is a good one and I'm hoping that someone can come on and discuss what they have learned about this.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby vidar » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:57 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:

Then what is the basis for insight?

The insight that those teachers that you quoted are talking is not in these so-called "discrete, momentary dhammas" or in the kalapas, is in the direct experience on the three characteristics especially impermanence, thorough an appreciation of impermanence the meditator gain insight to to the other two characteristics: perception of impermanence (anicca) led to the perception of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) in what is impermanent , and then the perception of not-self (anatta) in what is unsatisfactoriness.

Now regarding to the kalapas, althought is a term not found in the suttas or the early pali texts I think this is not an important issue, in the end this vipassana techniques can lead to the direct experience of the three characteristics and the breakthrough to awakening, about this the Ven. Analayo says:

In sum, the foregoing has shown how key aspects of the development of
insight delineated in the early discourses could be approached through modern
day Theravada meditation practice as exemplified in the U Ba Khin vipassana
tradition, taught by S.N. Goenka.
A description of the actual technique of gradually scanning the body as such,
however, does not seem to be found in the discourses. In fact, when describing
the experience of dissolution of the body and the mind, the instructions given
during a vipassana course taught by S.N. Goenka employ terms like kalapa or
bhavaga, which appear to stem from a later period than the early discourses.
The same is true of other modern day vipassana meditation traditions, whose
techniques as such cannot be found in the early discourses and which draw upon
the fully developed Theravada system, using terminology that came into use
considerably later.
Nevertheless, such modern practices do seem to present viable modes of implementing
the instructions on the development of insight found in the early discourses.
In as much as they conform to the basic pattern laid out for the practice
of insight by giving importance to a direct experience of the three characteristics,
they can rightfully lay a claim to being in accordance with the original instructions.

In fact, the generality of the instructions found in the early discourses in a way leaves
it up to practitioners to develop their own more precise methods of
putting those instructions into practice, thereby enabling them to proceed on the
path to awakening in the way best suited to their own particular capacities and
proclivities. In the end, it is precisely this that really counts, namely that one actually
walks the path to awakening.

http://host.pariyatti.org/treasures/The ... nsight.pdf
Last edited by vidar on Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)

By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby chownah » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:52 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
chownah wrote:Knowing things to be true is ignorance...so of course I DON"T know things to be true

How is it that knowing things to be true is ignorance?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications."
"Truth" is a fabrication.....I guess I should have said that knowing things to be true arises dependent on ignorance.....
......and further along the dependent co-arising process we come to "From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance".....and then: "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging." "Knowing" is part of a doctrine of self as it is a "self" that "knows" and also "knowing things to be true" is view clinging.......and all of this originates with ignorance.....so again I guess I should have said that knowing things to be true arises dependent on ignorance......I guess.....don't know for sure....
chownah
P.S. Scriptural quotes are from:
SN 12.2 PTS: S ii 2 CDB i 534
Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: Analysis of Dependent Co-arising
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:38 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:It's common in teachings and texts on vipassanā to hear that mind (nāma) and matter (rūpa) are actually comprised of discrete, momentary things undergoing incessant dissolution (bhaṅga).


To use the analogy of a reel of movie film, I think this approach is like looking at the individual frames one after the other. Does this one-frame-at-a-time approach give a better feel for transience than just watching the movie as it plays? I'm not sure it does.
We can watch for rise and fall, or just notice change.

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:17 pm

vidar wrote:The insight those teachers that you quoted are talking is not in these so-called "discrete, momentary dhammas" or in the kalapas, is in the direct experience on the three characteristics especially impermanence

But impermanence must be the characteristic of dhammas that can be directly perceived right? So what is it that is directly perceived to be undergoing incessant dissolution if not discrete momentary dhammas?
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:21 pm

chownah wrote:
Haven't most particles been around since shortly after the big bang?

That is a very good question but I think the answer is no....

It seems to me that this line of investigation takes us away from the penetration of the four noble truths.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:32 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:But impermanence must be the characteristic of dhammas that can be directly perceived right? So what is it that is directly perceived to be undergoing incessant dissolution if not discrete momentary dhammas?
Why don't you tell us what you think the answer is to your question. There is no way you do not have an opinion about this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:25 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:But impermanence must be the characteristic of dhammas that can be directly perceived right? So what is it that is directly perceived to be undergoing incessant dissolution if not discrete momentary dhammas?
Why don't you tell us what you think the answer is to your question. There is no way you do not have an opinion about this.

It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:18 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:But impermanence must be the characteristic of dhammas that can be directly perceived right? So what is it that is directly perceived to be undergoing incessant dissolution if not discrete momentary dhammas?
Why don't you tell us what you think the answer is to your question. There is no way you do not have an opinion about this.

It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
And so?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:46 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
And so?

So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:51 pm

Greetings,

Re: Nana's post above.... yes, this is something I have thought before too.

It's a legitimate concern, even if there may well be a fully reasonable explanation to account for it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:57 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
And so?

So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.

On the other hand, forgetting the philosophical machinations (which are certainly not what one is attending to in a retreat situation...) it might just be something that is commonly observed. Certainly the observation of experience "breaking up" is reported by just about everyone I know personally well enough to discuss such things, and doesn't rely on any theory (I'm not talking about any insight stages here, just what happens when one gets concentrated enough and pays attention enough). Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.

:anjali:
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:03 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It would have to be discrete momentary dhammas.
And so?

So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.
Does one have to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:03 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.

Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:05 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Does one hae to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?

You'll have to clarify what you mean by "rise and fall." This phrase is understood differently in different contexts.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:13 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.

Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.
Is it? And those who say they have such experiences?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:15 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does one to "acquiesce" to all of that in order to experience rise and fall?

You'll have to clarify what you mean by "rise and fall." This phrase is understood differently in different contexts.
For example: a thoughts comes into "being" then ends.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:19 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Without observing discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) the "observation" of incessant dissolution is impossible.

Is it?

How could it not be?

tiltbillings wrote:And those who say they have such experiences?

It's for each of us to discern if what we are directly perceiving or inferring on the basis of direct perception is valid or invalid.
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:20 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:It's for each of us to discern if what we are directly perceiving or inferring on the basis of direct perception is valid or invalid.
If that is the case, then your complaint (for that is the subtext here) is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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