Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:33 am

daverupa wrote:So do they teach another method for use post-jhana, while vipassana as most commonly presented is for pre-jhana, or is the practice to be done in the same way in both cases?

They all teach dry-vipassanā without the need for jhāna. Pa Auk also teaches jhāna, as does Goenka.

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby chownah » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:34 am

Ñāṇa wrote:People claim to experience all sorts of things. Just because someone claims to experience something doesn't mean that their claim is valid. They could very well be basing their claim on incorrect inferences and all sorts of cognitive biases.


People experience what they experience. If someone experiences a thought about momentary unicorns then they did in fact experience a thought about momentary unicorns.....the difficulty comes in when someone interprets the experience to reflect some thing which "really" "exists" in some "real" world.....is an experience of a thought about momentary unicorns valid?.....valid within what context?.....within the context of The All then I guess all fabricatoins are just fabrications....

All cognition is dependent on bias. All claims are just views....all views are based in ignorance and just so all claims are based in cognitive bias.....do not say "They could very well be basing thier claims on incorrect inference and all sorts of cognitive biases."....instead say "All claims that anyone ever makes are inherently based in incorrect inference and cognitive bias."
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby daverupa » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 am

Ñāṇa wrote:They all teach dry-vipassanā without the need for jhāna. Pa Auk also teaches jhāna, as does Goenka.


So jhana is still accepted as necessary, or isn't it? Is it claimed that this sort of vipassana leads to jhana?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Ben » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:39 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
daverupa wrote:So do they teach another method for use post-jhana, while vipassana as most commonly presented is for pre-jhana, or is the practice to be done in the same way in both cases?

They all teach dry-vipassanā without the need for jhāna. Pa Auk also teaches jhāna, as does Goenka.


This is wrong, Geoff.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby daverupa » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:46 am

Ben wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
daverupa wrote:So do they teach another method for use post-jhana, while vipassana as most commonly presented is for pre-jhana, or is the practice to be done in the same way in both cases?

They all teach dry-vipassanā without the need for jhāna. Pa Auk also teaches jhāna, as does Goenka.


This is wrong, Geoff.


Will you expand on this, briefly?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:58 am

Dan74 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:So if one doesn't accept or at least acquiesce to the view of discrete momentary dhammas with sub-moments of origination (uppāda), subsistence (ṭhiti), and dissolution (bhaṅga) then the insight stage of knowing the incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas lacks meaning and coherence.

On the other hand, forgetting the philosophical machinations (which are certainly not what one is attending to in a retreat situation...) it might just be something that is commonly observed. Certainly the observation of experience "breaking up" is reported by just about everyone I know personally well enough to discuss such things, and doesn't rely on any theory (I'm not talking about any insight stages here, just what happens when one gets concentrated enough and pays attention enough). Whether too much is made of this observation is perhaps the interesting question.

:anjali:
Mike


This is my view also.

I wonder if this again is an argument about semantics. These Burmese teachers are attempting to describe the moment of release and they describe it in terms of discrete momentary dhammas. Are they putting forward a philosophical position about existence or non-existence of such? No, I don't think so. It is simply descriptive language to guide practice. Can you show where such a description runs counter to what the Buddha taught in the suttas?

Thanks Dan. As I've said many times, after reading thousands of posts on these issues, I still have no clue how one would make use of philosophical positions in Dhamma practice. I see the Suttas, Commentaries, and modern teachers as putting forward practical advice, not philosophical positions. Others seem to approach the Dhamma differently, which is fine, but I've seen no evidence that their approach trumps all others, and in light of the Buddha's instructions to Canki, for example http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html I find such claims odd.

:anjali:
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:15 am

Greetings Mike,

In the context of Nana's quoted, that would be to "acquiesce to the view" (albeit implicitly).

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby ground » Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:59 am

From debates of this sort one may validly conclude that as soon as words of monks or commentaries are preferred to the words of the Buddha issues are likely to arise.

Kind regards

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:13 am

TMingyur wrote:From debates of this sort one may validly conclude that as soon as words of monks or commentaries are preferred to the words of the Buddha issues are likely to arise.

Kind regards


Who is making such a preference?
_/|\_

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby ground » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:21 am

Dan74 wrote:
TMingyur wrote:From debates of this sort one may validly conclude that as soon as words of monks or commentaries are preferred to the words of the Buddha issues are likely to arise.

Kind regards


Who is making such a preference?


People referring to commentaries and to Ajahn this and Ajahn that (and their Burmese equivalents) and to Master this and Master that ... in the course of argueing.

Kind regards

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
In the context of Nana's quoted, that would be to "acquiesce to the view" (albeit implicitly).

Well, as you know I think that's pretty much irrelevant. Each to his own. But it doesn't seem a very convincing argument to me to assert that if one does some practice it means one is buying into some particular philosophy. It's all straw men as far as I can tell.

Do practitioners actually spend time thinking about the nature of reality, or non-reality?

:anjali:
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:31 am

mikenz66 wrote:Well, as you know I think that's pretty much irrelevant.

Do you consider the teachings of the Buddha irrelevant?

mikenz66 wrote:But it doesn't seem a very convincing argument to me to assert that if one does some practice it means one is buying into some particular philosophy. It's all straw men as far as I can tell.

How can you discern something if you don't believe it is there?

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Ben » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:39 am

Greetings Dave,
daverupa wrote:
Ben wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:They all teach dry-vipassanā without the need for jhāna. Pa Auk also teaches jhāna, as does Goenka.


This is wrong, Geoff.


Will you expand on this, briefly?


In my 26 years of association with the U Ba Khin/Goenka "tradition", I have not once heard nor read SN Goenka or U Ba Khin insist on vipassana without jhana.
kind regards,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby robertk » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
And if one "acquiesces" and experiences incessant dissolution of discrete momentary dhammas?


Nana: People claim to experience all sorts of things. Just because someone claims to experience something doesn't mean that their claim is valid. They could very well be basing their claim on incorrect inferences and all sorts of cognitive biases.
For example, there was a time when I uncritically acquiesced to the view of radical momentariness and indeed experienced what I took to be the direct perception of incessant dissolution. Later, I came to understand that this was an inaccurate interpretation of what I was experiencing and I had no alternative but to abandon that view
.
Dear nana,
I appreciate your sincerity. I did many retreats with different techniques (most of which came of Myanmar in the 20th century) in the 1980s.
One teacher told me I had reached bhanga (dissolution ) or near to it becuase I described strange feelings assocaited with anxiety.
In a different technique I was told - after reporting some blissful feelings in the body- that this was probably bhanga.

In another retreat a 86 year old master of a different technique again, told me that I had experinced namarupa parichedda (the first vipassana nana). Note bhanga is the fifth vipassana nana, so this master was essentially saying i had attained a lower level than the others.
He actually encouraged me to stay on in Thailand and become the assitant teacher fro farang :becuase in this technique the first stage of vipassana is considered a huge milestone.
Later on I realised that it was all my own wishful thinking, a kind of autosuggestion, and readily took on anything positive from otehr sources as well!.
I hadnt attained anything at all.
Lobha , desire, is very ready to convince one of our progress, it is always waiting to catch one. Just recently someone in Thailand reported that he couldnt believe in Abhidhamma becuase he was enligthened and knew different/
I almost laughed in his face except he was so serious about his "achievement"..

You reach the conclusion that because these techniques are based on the Abhidhamma Commentaries of Theravada, that it is the Commentaries -with their emphasis on paramattha dhammas, momentary arising and ceasing, billions in a finger snap that are wrong.
I think it is rather that vipassana is not about technique, it is much much more subtle and deep than that.
Just a thought.
best
Robert

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Ben » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:30 am

robertk wrote:I think it is rather that vipassana is not about technique, it is much much more subtle and deep than that.

I concur.
kind regards,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:56 am

robertk wrote:You reach the conclusion that because these techniques are based on the Abhidhamma Commentaries of Theravada, that it is the Commentaries -with their emphasis on paramattha dhammas, momentary arising and ceasing, billions in a finger snap that are wrong.

And how do you know they aren't wrong?

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby gavesako » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:20 am

If you want a purely philosophical discussion of this issue, see Samanera Bodhesako's CHANGE:

https://pathpress.wordpress.com/bodhesako/change/

It boils down to this question:

"Does ketchup pour faster for enlightened beings?"


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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby robertk » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:54 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
robertk wrote:You reach the conclusion that because these techniques are based on the Abhidhamma Commentaries of Theravada, that it is the Commentaries -with their emphasis on paramattha dhammas, momentary arising and ceasing, billions in a finger snap that are wrong.

And how do you know they aren't wrong?

Why do I believe the Theravada to uphold true Dhamma is what you are asking I guess and that must be becuase of accumulations over lifetimes, its why I am not a zen man or Tibten (or Muslim for that matter).
Well I've written extensively about the tHeravada tradition and how Buddhaghosa was the compiler of the very ancient Commentaries that date back even to the first council. It all fits perfectly, accurately , and agrees with what I sense to be true about reality.

But that is of course not a convincing reason, and no one should/could be swayed by someones personal anecdotes.
So I just explain what I know and let people who are interested see if it clicks..then they can maybe start to see that lobha is almost always present, especially when we feel convinced about our 'progess' ,. If they can be then directly aware of lobha, there and then , the path will start to become clearer . IMHO of course.

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Ben » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:17 am

robertk wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
robertk wrote:You reach the conclusion that because these techniques are based on the Abhidhamma Commentaries of Theravada, that it is the Commentaries -with their emphasis on paramattha dhammas, momentary arising and ceasing, billions in a finger snap that are wrong.

And how do you know they aren't wrong?

Why do I believe the Theravada to uphold true Dhamma is what you are asking I guess and that must be becuase of accumulations over lifetimes, its why I am not a zen man or Tibten (or Muslim for that matter).
Well I've written extensively about the tHeravada tradition and how Buddhaghosa was the compiler of the very ancient Commentaries that date back even to the first council. It all fits perfectly, accurately , and agrees with what I sense to be true about reality.

But that is of course not a convincing reason, and no one should/could be swayed by someones personal anecdotes.
So I just explain what I know and let people who are interested see if it clicks..then they can maybe start to see that lobha is almost always present, especially when we feel convinced about our 'progess' ,. If they can be then directly aware of lobha, there and then , the path will start to become clearer . IMHO of course.


Well said, Robert!
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:52 am

robertk wrote:But that is of course not a convincing reason....

No, it isn't.

Some people would rather learn Buddhadhamma than Buddhaghosadhamma.


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