On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Gaoxing
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Gaoxing »

danieLion wrote:Gaoxing,
I'm confused by your syntax. Please rephrase.
Kindly,
dL
What part confuses you? I'll try if you can tell me where.

Having read my own bit again I believe I might have talked rubbish. I'll rephrase if you tell me where. please.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Buckwheat wrote: This is a point I think some people miss: Thanissaro's motive for the Not-Self strategy is not to leave things open for some mystical self, or to water it down, but to make anatta more powerful and applicable to all the actions of our daily life. Am I self-ing? How? What are the implications?
I tend to agree. "The five aggregates subject to clinging" is a summary for dukkha in the First Noble Truth, and craving / clinging is the proximate cause of suffering in the second Noble Truth - so a not-self strategy to reduce craving and clinging to the aggregates makes a lot of sense.

I find the broader question of no-self more difficult. But it is the case that in the suttas the Buddha consistently refused to make ontological statements about self/no-self ( among other things ). And something I find puzzling is the way in which no-self is equated with annihilationism in the Ananda Sutta, given that annihilationism is seen as wrong view.
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Gaoxing
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Actually the Buddha’s methods of refusing to speak about no-self or self are simple when considering the audience.

Speaking to either extremes and answering both would be fatal to the minds of those who are either rooted in eternalism (the atta teachings in the time of the Buddha) or annihilation (the anatta teachings in the time of the Buddha). Actually the Buddha never denied the existence of a self but clearly taught that the existence of a self is an illusion to both extremes and that the self is not permanent and only a constantly changing construct of the changing Khandhas. The Buddha taught an atta that is in constant flux and interdependent. Dynamically changing.This atta that is in constant flux is Anatta to the extreme of ‘eternalists’ but is also atta to ‘annihilationists’ but it is neither to an audience holding both extreme views and therefore it is silence.

There is the Atta which is Anatta but this atta is neither the atta nor the Anatta of the extremes. The atta which is Anatta is not permanent neither nothing and neither is Anatta only applicable to small things outside of a so-called permanent atta like a stone or a well of water which were also seen as atta namely animism but it is applicable to all that is seen to be a permanent atta and even consciousness like in Advaita.

If the audience have the mind of seeing only the two extremes to which one could answer no there is no self or to the other that yes there is a self would be disastrous.

The Buddha taught sunnata (interdependence, thusness or voidness) and therefore neither not-self nor no-self but used both not-self and no-self as tools to guide the practice towards sunnata.

For the western mind the word 'self' mostly indicates something permanent or independent and therefore the use of no-self would be more appropriate than not-self, in general.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Spiny Norman wrote:I find the broader question of no-self more difficult. But it is the case that in the suttas the Buddha consistently refused to make ontological statements about self/no-self ( among other things ). And something I find puzzling is the way in which no-self is equated with annihilationism in the Ananda Sutta, given that annihilationism is seen as wrong view.
I have a very pragmatic approach to all this, and it seems to be in agreement with the Suttas and with Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings on the matter.

Namely, my experience upon being told "You are this, you are that, this is who you really are" - ie. statements about what my true nature is, who I really am - is bewilderment, consistently so.
For example, when a Mormon tells me "You are a child of God," or a Hare Krishna tells me "You are part and parcel of God," or "You are a spirit soul in a body," or when a Western psychologist tells me "You are the epiphenomenon of the neuro-biological processes in your body," or when just someone tells me "You are an idiot" or "You're awesome" - what on earth am I supposed to do with that??! Those identifications are absolutely bewildering to me. I can neither accept them, nor reject them - although it seems clear enough that the person who identified me as this or that wants something from me, but it's not clear what.

Whatever identification of my true nature is proposed, there is a problem with it - and this is the problem with identifications of true nature:
If I am a child of God, then why doesn't God take better care of me? Or does God just not particularly care about me anyway? If so, why bother?
If I am a part and parcel of God, and I am unhappy, then this means that God - despite His omnipotence - is unhappy too. And that is a miserable outlook.
If I am a spirit soul in a body, then how come I don't experience myself that way?
If I am the epiphenomenon of the neuro-biological processes in my body - then why bother with anything, given that I am just a glorified robot?
If I am an idiot, then how come I have a sense of right and wrong?
If I am awesome, then why do I suffer?
If I am a Buddhist, then why am I not enlightened?
If I am not a Buddhist, then I can have no hope of ever becoming enlightened, so why bother with anything.
And so on.

And it is on the grounds of these considerations that I approach the teachings on anatta. Whatever I would take as the truth about myself, as the truth about who I really am, I end up confused, bewildered, and then paralyzed.
Having a view about "who I really am" is a recipe for the strenghtening of the hindrances.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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binocular wrote:If I am a Buddhist, then why am I not enlightened?
Because you have not done the work.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:If I am a Buddhist, then why am I not enlightened?
Because you have not done the work.
You've missed the point of my post ...
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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tiltbillings
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:If I am a Buddhist, then why am I not enlightened?
Because you have not done the work.
You've missed the point of my post ...
And your point is?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Gaoxing wrote:If the audience have the mind of seeing only the two extremes to which one could answer no there is no self or to the other that yes there is a self would be disastrous.
But this seems to assume that Indian thought at the Buddha's time was unsophisticated, and that his audience couldn't have coped with some clear statements about self/no-self. I'm not sure what those assumptions are based on.
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Gaoxing
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Spiny Norman wrote:
Gaoxing wrote:If the audience have the mind of seeing only the two extremes to which one could answer no there is no self or to the other that yes there is a self would be disastrous.
But this seems to assume that Indian thought at the Buddha's time was unsophisticated, and that his audience couldn't have coped with some clear statements about self/no-self. I'm not sure what those assumptions are based on.
It's not about assumptions its about knowing who is who and what they believe in. It's also about the Suttas. You can't generalize matters in that way. Does India have one head?
Last edited by Gaoxing on Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gaoxing
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Binoc wrote:Having a view about "who I really am" is a recipe for the strenghtening of the hindrances.
Correct but it differs from person to person and where they are on the path.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Gaoxing wrote:It's not about assumptions.....You can't generalize matters in that way.
I agree - that's really the point I was making.
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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tiltbillings wrote:And your point is?
Like I already said: Having a view about "who I really am" is a recipe for the strenghtening of the hindrances.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And your point is?
Like I already said: Having a view about "who I really am" is a recipe for the strenghtening of the hindrances.
Then you did not make your point very clear in the above msg. Also, until you reach into the ariya levels, you are going to have a view about "who you really are" whether you want it or not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Gaoxing
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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Spiny Norman wrote:
Gaoxing wrote:It's not about assumptions.....You can't generalize matters in that way.
I agree - that's really the point I was making.
Bad thoughts? Sometimes the question do arise; " Why are the suttas so unsophisticated?"

Maybe the circumstances at the time did not allow for lengthy discussions due to a lack of the Internet or maybe it's a simple but modern matter of lacking insight or being bored.
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Gaoxing
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

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tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And your point is?
Like I already said: Having a view about "who I really am" is a recipe for the strenghtening of the hindrances.
Then you did not make your point very clear in the above msg. Also, until you reach into the ariya levels, you are going to have a view about "who you really are" whether you want it or not.
This view of who I really am is very frustrating at the moment. Dammit! It's like having a big ball of hot gum stuck to the shoe. It's best to just take the damn shoe off because no matter where you tread it sticks and strings. How long does one have to sit?
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