Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:42 pm

Getting right back to the OP:
retrofuturist wrote:Until now I've paid negligible attention to Krishnamurti, but I am currently reading a book called "Explorers of Inner Space: The Buddha, Krishnamurti & Kierkegaard" by Padmasiri de Silva and am now interested in the extent to which there may be overlap and even potentially synergy between what the Buddha and Krishnamurti taught.

The Buddha, Krishnamurti & Kierkegaard are an odd assortment, aren't they?
It's a long time since I had anything to do with Kierkegaard, or any interest in him. I came across him through Existentialism. Some writers revered him so I thought I should try reading him ... only to find someone so totally bogged down in self-absorbed, self-generated misery that I put the book down unfinished on the basis that anyone so miserable must be wrong on a quite fundamental level. The Existentialists as a whole were pretty bad that way but Kierkegaard ... :toilet:
How does de Silva relate him to the other two?

:namaste:
Kim
User avatar
Kim OHara
 
Posts: 3063
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:50 pm

Greetings Kim,

Kim O'Hara wrote:Kierkegaard ... How does de Silva relate him to the other two?

Yeah, that's roughly about where I'm getting up to in the book. Page 82, which is near the end of the chapter I just finished, includes...

A new approach to existentialist philosophy has been presented in the discussion that follows this chapter. The discussion revolves round a cluster of problems and issues that cut across the philosophies of different existentialist thinkers. These problems have been subjected to a cross-disciplinary analysis and in doing this we have placed the philosophy of existentialism against the background of psycho-analysis and the wisdom of the Buddha.

:reading: :popcorn:

A small note - whilst the full "Explorers Of Inner Space" does not appear to be online, Part II of the book "Tangles and Webs: Comparative Studies in Existentialism" which I've just come to, appears to be online here... http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/padmas.htm although it "timed out" whilst I tried loading it, so can't confirm it's an active link.

I do like the Dhamma quote that kicks of Part II:

"A tangle inside, a tangle outside,
This generation is entangled in a tangle.
I ask you this, O Gotama,
Who can disentangle this tangle?"

"A man established on virtue, wise,
Developing the mind and wisdom,
A bhikkhu ardent and discreet:
He can disentangle this tangle."


(Kindred Sayings, I,13)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14672
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Viscid » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:06 pm

How'd you come to find this book? It seems awfully obscure. I can't even find it on Amazon or Google Books.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
User avatar
Viscid
 
Posts: 904
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:10 pm

Greetings,

Viscid wrote:How'd you come to find this book? It seems awfully obscure. I can't even find it on Amazon or Google Books.

Browsing online at the Buddhist Cultural Centre Bookshop. Here's the entry...

http://www.buddhistcc.net/bookshop/book ... p?bid=1464

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14672
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Mr Man » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:04 am

Here is a little snippet where Goenka relates a meeting he had with Krishnamurti
http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk22c.htm
There seems to be a fair bit relating to Buddhism/Krishnamurti on the Buddhanet site.

I went to listen to Krishnamurti speak at Brockwood Park as a monk along with other monks - I found the atmosphere at Brockwood Park rarefied. I also remember watching a video of Krishnamurti teaching children in India, which I found very impressive. I would recommend "Krishnamurti's notebook" and network of thought.

In probably Krishnamurti's most famous speech* he says "I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally." which is possibly in conflict with the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka but in my opinion that is to miss the point.

*Dissolution Speech http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-kris ... speech.php
User avatar
Mr Man
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Will » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:33 pm

Krishnaji seemed to think that intensity of attention was all that was needed in his "pathless path". He was hostile (after 1922 or so) to any spiritual path, eight-fold, yoga, lam-rim etc. Any path that was outlined by traditional gurus or texts he would denigrate as a corrupting, distracting outside influence. Never mind virtues, merit-making etc. just increase ones attention....

So I do not see any compatibility of K. with Theravada or any path.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby ancientbuddhism » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:38 pm

Will wrote:Krishnaji seemed to think that intensity of attention was all that was needed in his "pathless path". He was hostile (after 1922 or so) to any spiritual path, eight-fold, yoga, lam-rim etc. Any path that was outlined by traditional gurus or texts he would denigrate as a corrupting, distracting outside influence. Never mind virtues, merit-making etc. just increase ones attention....

So I do not see any compatibility of K. with Theravada or any path.


Indeed
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
 
Posts: 666
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:29 pm

Greetings,

Will wrote:Krishnaji seemed to think that intensity of attention was all that was needed in his "pathless path".

Did he ever explain the basis for his rejection of paths?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14672
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:45 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Will wrote:Krishnaji seemed to think that intensity of attention was all that was needed in his "pathless path".

Did he ever explain the basis for his rejection of paths?
Except the path he is offering?

The story is that he was supposedly to be presented as the "World Teacher" as sort of second coming and Maiterya and all of that, and was groomed by the Annie Besant crowd of the Theosophical Society, but he became disgusted by it all, by all the trappings of religion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19546
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby vinasp » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:54 pm

Hi Retro, everyone,

From memory K said something like: "Total transformation does not require time."

It would seem to be a version of "sudden enlightenment."

Which is also found in the Sutta Pitaka eg: Parileyya Sutta SN 22.81

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
 
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Will » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Will wrote:Krishnaji seemed to think that intensity of attention was all that was needed in his "pathless path".

Did he ever explain the basis for his rejection of paths?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Many times (and in many ways); just keep reading, he will get into it. But it has been 30 years since I paid "attention" or gave any "awareness" to K. so I have forgotten specifics.
Last edited by Will on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Travis » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:52 am

Hey Retro,

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/i ... -072-5.cfm Check out the excerpt under the Read More heading on the right.

This is a link to a fairly interesting talk between Walpola Rahula and Krishnamurti that was published as a book titled "Can Humanity Change" With a little digging you could also probably find an audio or text version online because a lot of Krishnamurti's talks are available for free. Just cross reference the speakers, date and/or place of the talk.

I'm not sure if this is all of it but here is some at least:
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/19 ... urti-truth
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/19 ... urti-death

You might also be interested in a short reference to Krishnamurti (as Krishnamurthy) by Bhikkhu Nanananda in "Section III Notes to the Bhaddekaratta Sutta" (Ideal Solitude p. 17 & 18)

Metta,
Travis
User avatar
Travis
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby rowboat » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:59 am

Did he ever explain the basis for his rejection of paths?


Krishnamurti made a distinction between chronological time and what he called psychological time. Psychological time was understood to be the distance, internally, between the present moment and the complete network, or space, of an individual's mental conditioning. He felt that it was not possible to come to the sacred - which he located in momentary awarenesss - from a place of conditioned mental activity. This is why he rejected all paths and proclaimed that truth was a pathless land. I owe a great debt to the writings of Krishnamurti because I may never would have otherwise come to know about meditation, but on the other hand, when certain very auspicious opportunities were presented to me (to learn Pali and to encounter the Pali Canon, when my viriya was very strong indeed) I rejected these opportunies, because, "truth is a pathless land."

The first time I felt the ball of concentrated awareness in the head it arose very suddenly as I was experimenting with sitting meditation while reading along with one of Krishnamurti's books, ("The Wholeness of Life"; a series of talks with the psychiatrist Dr Shainberg and David Bohm). I remember trying to get a handle of what he meant by the phrase "the observer is the observed" and then it occurred to me, and at the same time this very palpable new sensation arose in the head. The beam of awareness had turned inwards on itself. This is the esoteric meaning of that perennial ouroboros image. The first step is the last step, so to speak. Saying that, I don't think Krishnamurti was practicing Buddhist meditation. You can find a great deal of the occult throughout his life. Some of the people who were in his circle are the same people responsible for allowing certain meditative techniques, mostly originating out of Tibet, to fall into the hands of people in this world who have only sinister designs. Speaking of OTO, Temple of Set, and that sort of nastiness.
Last edited by rowboat on Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
User avatar
rowboat
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:01 am

Travis wrote:You might also be interested in a short reference to Krishnamurti (as Krishnamurthy) by Bhikkhu Nanananda in "Section III Notes to the Bhaddekaratta Sutta" (Ideal Solitude p. 17 & 18)

Metta,
Travis


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el188.html

    There is, however, a notion in some philosophers — notably in Krishnamurthy — that it is the faculty of memory as such, that is to be blamed for man's psychological bondage.[7] In an attempt to "die to the past" he seems to regard memory as the villain-of-the-piece and advocate its obliteration while stressing the necessity of awareness. This contrasts with the Buddhist approach inasmuch as sati, which is a term for awareness or "mindfulness,"[8] is also the usual term for "memory." Thus, one comes across the following standard definition of satindriya (the spiritual faculty of mindfulness) in the Paali canon:

    And what, monks, is the faculty of mindfulness? Herein, monks, a noble disciple is mindful and is endowed with the highest prudence in mindfulness; he is one who remembers and recollects even what is done or said long ago. This, monks, is called the faculty of mindfulness.

    — S V 197

    The most distinctive feature of the Buddha's solution to the intricate problem of mindfulness and memory is the emphasis on detachment. The elimination of the element of delight was the essential condition to be fulfilled, and to this end he oriented his exhortations to the monks so that often the finale turns out to be: "Impermanent, O monks, are formations. Unstable, O Monks, are formations. Unsatisfying, O monks, are formations; so much so, monks, that this is enough for one to turn away from all formations; enough to get detached from them; enough to seek release from them."[9] The theme of impermanence runs even through his contemplation of mountains and rivers, which, for the average man, offer beautiful landscapes and lasting landmarks. Indeed, this emphasis on utter detachment based on the contemplation of universal impermanence is not so marked in other systems of thought purporting to solve the above problem; even in Krishnamurthy, too much stress is laid, for instance, on the beauty of "marvelous" mountains, trees, rivers, and sunsets.

    It is also significant that the Buddhist scheme of mind-training, while recognizing the role of mindfulness or awareness in the field of sense-restraint, assigns the function of transcendence to the faculty of wisdom (pa~n~naa). As such, it does not find itself in the awkward position of being "anti-memory" and "pro-awareness." Though sati is helpful in temporarily stemming the swift currents of craving flowing in through the six sense-doors, the ultimate deliverance of the mind is a matter for the penetrative faculty of pa~n~naa — whetted, as it were, on the three signata.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19546
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Travis » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:08 am

:twothumbsup: Yeah, that's it. Thanks, Tilt.
User avatar
Travis
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby rowboat » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:16 am

Not so much the faculty of memory, Tilt Billings, but the entire mass of mental activity which lies outside of momentary awareness. It's what is meant by "the first step is the last step," where it is presumed that at some point along a process within momentary awareness, of its own accord, one may come upon the other, borrowing here from Krishnamurti's own idiom. It's my view that Krishnamurti's teachings are, to a large degree, completely anathema to the Path as revealed by The Buddha.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
User avatar
rowboat
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:48 am

rowboat wrote:Not so much the faculty of memory, Tilt Billings, but the entire mass of mental activity which lies outside of momentary awareness. It's what is meant by "the first step is the last step," where it is presumed that at some point along a process within momentary awareness, of its own accord, one may come upon the other, borrowing here from Krishnamurti's own idiom. It's my view that Krishnamurti's teachings are, to a large degree, completely anathema to the Path as revealed by The Buddha.
I have no idea as to what you mean by "momentary awareness," and it seems likely it should not be conflated with with Buddhist notions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19546
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby rowboat » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:00 am

I have no idea as to what you mean by "momentary awareness,"


What?? Are you being passive-aggressive with me? Oh my goodness. I think you mean to say you have no idea what Krishnamurti means by momentary awareness. As I made very clear, Krishnamurti located the present moment as being separate from psychological time.

and it seems likely it should not be conflated with with Buddhist notions.


And who is doing that? We are in agreement. Please read with greater care.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
User avatar
rowboat
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby rowboat » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:06 am

If you are familiar with Krishnamurti's talks and writings then you know there is hardly a page that doesn't speak of the present moment which he sets apart from everything else, i.e., one's conditioning or psychological time.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
User avatar
rowboat
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay, British Columbia

Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:08 am

rowboat wrote:
I have no idea as to what you mean by "momentary awareness,"


What?? Are you being passive-aggressive with me? Oh my goodness. I think you mean to say you have no idea what Krishnamurti means by momentary awareness. As I made very clear, Krishnamurti located the present moment as being separate from psychological time.
Are you being overly touchy? You introduced the locution "momentary awareness" into this discussion not based upon an actual quote of Krishnamurti, so I asked what you meant, which seems not unreasonable.

and it seems likely it should not be conflated with with Buddhist notions.


And who is doing that? We are in agreement. Please read with greater care.
You might try writing a bit more carefully, which would also be of great help, but thanks for the clarification
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19546
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Mr Man and 8 guests