Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
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Kim OHara
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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:16 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kim,

Kim O'Hara wrote:Kierkegaard ... How does de Silva relate him to the other two?

Yeah, that's roughly about where I'm getting up to in the book. Page 82, which is near the end of the chapter I just finished, includes...

A new approach to existentialist philosophy has been presented in the discussion that follows this chapter. The discussion revolves round a cluster of problems and issues that cut across the philosophies of different existentialist thinkers. These problems have been subjected to a cross-disciplinary analysis and in doing this we have placed the philosophy of existentialism against the background of psycho-analysis and the wisdom of the Buddha.

:reading: :popcorn:

A small note - whilst the full "Explorers Of Inner Space" does not appear to be online, Part II of the book "Tangles and Webs: Comparative Studies in Existentialism" which I've just come to, appears to be online here... http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/padmas.htm although it "timed out" whilst I tried loading it, so can't confirm it's an active link.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Hi, Retro,
Did you get as far as Kierkegaard?
Anything to report?

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:27 pm

Greetings Kim,

I'll have a flick through the book this evening and see if I can find an eloquent summary contained within the author's own words. Until then the gist of the comparative analysis was that...

Kierkegaard had developed a 3-stage life model, which from memory, considered "the aesthete", "the ethical/moral" (not sure exactly what this one was called, from memory) and "the religious". Kierkegaard's analysis of the aesthete mirrors the Buddha's in regards to the dissatisfactory nature of a life based on sensual pursuits (and boredom in their absence). The second stage, corresponded roughly with the married lay Buddhist, following precepts and upholding a level of morality and such. For the final stage though, the correlation seems to fall apart due to Kierkegaard's negativity, religious hang-ups and theistic assumptions (including the inability to achieve one's own salvation) underpinning his analysis. With that in mind, Kierkegaard's existential approach to "the aesthete" may contribute to a better understanding of the depth and breadth of dukkha (complementing the Buddha's own existensive list) and "the ethical/moral" may contribute to an appreciation of the benefits of sila and sense restraint in modern society.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby SamKR » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:38 pm

JK's experiential teachings are not different from those of other nondual (Advaita) teachers. So JK's teachings (except, of course, about necessity of "path" and "teacher") are compatible to Buddhism so far as Advaita is compatible.

I think that the final goal of the Buddha's teachings is grander than, and lies beyond that of, Advaita (although the experiences of their followers can be somewhat similar in the beginning). However, my hunch is that the followers of nondual teachings are likely to experience a variety of not-self sooner and more easily than the followers of Theravada - since nondual teachings attack the idea of thinker and doer self effectively from the very beginning. In "orthodox" Theravada circles I found the tendency to regard understanding of not-self and attainment of any stages of enlightenment as very very difficult or almost impossible task (creating a sort of psychological block from the beginning).

While learning about the teachings and experiences/realizations of teachers of nondualism (mostly Advaita Vedanta), I found it amazing that there are striking similarities of teachings and experiences among those nondual followers. I don't think such similarity of experiences among the practitioners are found within traditions of Buddhism such as Theravada (except in Suttas - where we see similarities in people's realizations).

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby suttametta » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings all,

Until now I've paid negligible attention to Krishnamurti, but I am currently reading a book called "Explorers of Inner Space: The Buddha, Krishnamurti & Kierkegaard" by Padmasiri de Silva and am now interested in the extent to which there may be overlap and even potentially synergy between what the Buddha and Krishnamurti taught.

I'm also interested in any incompatibility between the two - specifically, any instances where anything Krishnamurti has said comes into direct conflict with the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka.

Furthermore, if anyone has read the book I am reading (or anything else by Padmasiri de Silva) and wishes to comment on that, feel free to do so too.

:thanks:

Does anyone have any thoughts to open with?

Metta,
Retro. :)

The exploration of papanca and balapalaba.

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Kusala » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:59 am

The Buddha and J. Krishnamurti: Reflections http://buddhistbooksblog.wordpress.com/ ... flections/
Image

Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby appicchato » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:15 am

Compatible?...most definitely...I arrived one day in the early '70's, unannounced, at the gates of Krotona in Ojai...was taken in on the spot, allowed to stay for some months (I left, wasn't asked to leave), and participated in many activities related to what the place is/was about...saw Krishnamurti but once, and it was special...just a meaningless anecdote to convey the feeling of how much more hard the world seems to have become...I don't see any Buddhist temples (or possibly even Krotona for that matter) in the West as accommodating these days...could be wrong though, as I've been in Asia a long time...fond memories for sure, even though the Orient, and Buddhism, called...

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Dan74 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:24 am

Hopefully this is a cycle (the world becoming harder) and things will settle and warm up inside rather than outside only though it's hard to imagine this in the near future.

As for K, I discovered recently that he was a big influence on Toni Packer, one of the few non-denominational teachers I respect very much. Packer illumined the essence of practice to me, very grateful.
_/|\_

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Krishnamurti is one of those authors that is worth reading for any number of reasons, but he was also a flaming hypocrite, at least in terms of requiring his followers be celibate while he was boffing the wife of one of his followers. It is an interesting phenomenon that, genuine spiritual insight and spiritual failing going hand in hand.



Thank you for sharing this..I thought Osho was a degenerate....shows how much difficult sexual continence really is...Some of these Indians are really famous in the West though nobody back home knows them

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby Mkoll » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:04 pm

Shaswata_Panja wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Krishnamurti is one of those authors that is worth reading for any number of reasons, but he was also a flaming hypocrite, at least in terms of requiring his followers be celibate while he was boffing the wife of one of his followers. It is an interesting phenomenon that, genuine spiritual insight and spiritual failing going hand in hand.



Thank you for sharing this..I thought Osho was a degenerate....shows how much difficult sexual continence really is...Some of these Indians are really famous in the West though nobody back home knows them

Some of Osho's followers were certainly degenerate, much worse in fact: they were responsible for the worst bioterror attack in US history.

The 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack was the food poisoning of 751 individuals in The Dalles, Oregon, United States, through the deliberate contamination of salad bars at ten local restaurants with salmonella. A leading group of followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (later known as Osho) had hoped to incapacitate the voting population of the city so that their own candidates would win the 1984 Wasco County elections.[2] The incident was the first and single largest bioterrorist attack in United States history.[3][4] The attack is one of only two confirmed terrorist uses of biological weapons to harm humans since 1945.[5]
-wikipedia

Reading Krishnamurti was the first thing in my life that really "woke me up" and shook me out of my habitual ways of thought. I also read some of Osho's books. However, I got no tangible benefit from their teachings and the reasons for this should be obvious.

Thank goodness for the Buddha. :bow:
Peace,
James

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby rowboat » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:06 am

I'm also interested in any incompatibility between the two - specifically, any instances where anything Krishnamurti has said comes into direct conflict with the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka.


“I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. ... The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth.” - Jiddu Krishnamurti

An unambiguous rejection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, by Krishnamurti.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:06 am

rowboat wrote:
“I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. ... The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth.” - Jiddu Krishnamurti
So, don't follow Krishnamurti on this this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby SamKR » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:32 am

rowboat wrote:
“I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. ... The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth.” - Jiddu Krishnamurti

An unambiguous rejection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, by Krishnamurti.


Right. I believe what he meant by "any path" is "any rigid path", and by "follow someone" he meant "follow someone blindly". Otherwise, this very bold statement of Krishnamurti, which may have made impact on many people because of its glamour, does not make much sense if considered carefully. Actually, he followed a path (method) that others also have followed, and there are people who follow him.

I believe that the most important distinction between the Buddha's eight-fold noble path and the nondual-variety of teachings (like Krishnamurti's "pathless" path) is regarding where they lead. The Buddha's "Nibbana" is not the same as Krishnamurti's "Truth". In my limited understanding, Krishnamurti's or similar variety of nondual teachings' "Truth" is just one of the possible stations or rest areas towards the ultimate destination.

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Re: Compatibility of Buddha and Krishnamurti

Postby rowboat » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:20 am

Right. I believe what he meant by "any path" is "any rigid path", and by "follow someone" he meant "follow someone blindly". Otherwise, this very bold statement of Krishnamurti, which may have made impact on many people because of its glamour, does not make much sense if considered carefully.


Krishnamurti's position that "truth is a pathless land" taken in its rightful context is to do with meditation. He felt that in order to discover something new, first "the old" must be abandoned; "the old" being leaders, gurus, political ideologies, religious dogmas, devotional rituals, and traditions of meditation. So there was no ambiguity about this on the the part of Krishnamurti. (He also liked to refer to himself in the 3rd person, which does side-step that inconvenient "circularity" where we find a religious leader exhorting his followers to abandon religious leaders.)

It's important to remember that Krishnamurti came out of an occult tradition (Blavatsky, Annie Besant, H.S. Olcott, Theosophy) and his thoughts about Buddhism were "flavoured."
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5


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