Entheogens and Buddhism

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Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby 1q2aw3 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:36 pm

I am by no means propagating usage of psychedelics etc etc.

For those who know how does it work. How do you think taking entheogens affects karma? Would you as followers of Buddhism would be for or against the usage of them?
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:40 pm

fifth precept against taking intoxicants, that lead to carelessness!

so no it wouldn't conform to Buddhist practice.
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby 1q2aw3 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:49 pm

But you are aware of course that certain psychedelics lead to thousand times heightened carefulness, rather than carelessness.

LSD is like an instant enlightenment for a couple of hours, so it does not classify under this. Sorry.
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby chownah » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:13 pm

Would you as followers of Buddhism would be for or against the usage of them?

I don't care one way or the other if people use any kind of drug....it is entirely up to them. There are risks with taking almost every drug. I think it would be foolish to think that taking LSD (for example since you mention it) is risk free....I'm glad that you are by no means propagating usage of psychedelics etc etc.......so I guess you are going to present some balanced posting here and not just talk about the possible benefits of taking them and try to minimize the risks.....
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:26 pm

1q2aw3 wrote:But you are aware of course that certain psychedelics lead to thousand times heightened carefulness, rather than carelessness.

LSD is like an instant enlightenment for a couple of hours, so it does not classify under this. Sorry.


yes it does, it distorts perceptions and is not a natural state i.e. it is from an external stimulus which alters the mind.
sorry but the rule is clear enough, LSD does actually lead to lack of restraint which is by definition in the precept context carelessness.

if people want to do it, it is up to them, but it is not a Buddhist practice, i.e. the Buddha would not advocate it.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Lazy_eye » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:30 pm

LSD isn't an intoxicant [ed: as defined in the suttas], so I don't see that it really falls within the scope of the fifth precept. The language used to define the fifth precept clearly refers to alcoholic beverages.

I'd be a little cautious about calling it "instant enlightenment", though, as I doubt the experience is equivalent to the attainment of nibbana. It might be more like one of the jhana states.

In my opinion, it falls within the category of "things the Buddha didn't address". That doesn't in itself tell us whether it's beneficial or harmful. The Buddha didn't talk about cigarettes either, but they are still bad for your health.

[Edited to clarify definition of "intoxicant"]
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:49 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:LSD isn't an intoxicant, so I don't see that it really falls within the scope of the fifth precept.

I'd be a little cautious about calling it "instant enlightenment", though, as I doubt the experience is equivalent to the attainment of nibbana. It might be more like one of the jhana states.

In my opinion, it falls within the category of "things the Buddha didn't address". That doesn't in itself tell us whether it's beneficial or harmful. The Buddha didn't talk about cigarettes either, but they are still bad for your health.


Surā-meraya-majja-pamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhā-padaṃ samādiyāmi.
I take upon myself the precept for abstaining from
Recreational intoxicants that lead to carelessness.

pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
the rule is about substances which lead to heedlessness, so are intoxicants, as it is a substance which alters the mind (you don't see things in a clear way as when you are not on the substance).
it mentions alcohol as that is how the origin rule in the vinaya came about, but it would also include any substance which would lead to a mind-state not within the bounds of a sober person.
but simple application of the great standard... and you have anything which alters the mind not only alcohol, which is not for a medicinal purpose included.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Alexei » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:12 pm

There is a funny theory that Dhamma Wheel (probably pre-buddhist symbol) originally represented the cap of mushroom.

Some dhammacakka images look really like the whole of it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/Khao_Khlang_Nai-004.jpg/320px-Khao_Khlang_Nai-004.jpg
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby kirk5a » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:57 pm

1q2aw3 wrote:But you are aware of course that certain psychedelics lead to thousand times heightened carefulness, rather than carelessness.

LSD is like an instant enlightenment for a couple of hours, so it does not classify under this. Sorry.

It certainly is not, it's like instant insanity for a few hours. Of course it leads to carelessness, one is out of one's mind and is capable of doing all sorts of damaging things. I've never done it, but I have read many first hand experience reports. For every one who claims something "enlightening" there's a dozen tales of madness. You can go here, for example, and read "How I Went Bat f*** Crazy for Three Months"
I know exactly what's going to happen, and I start running faster than any human has ever run before, since Jake's wiry, fast, and already halfway there. I get in front of him at exactly the moment he jumps up with a whoop and kicks the car door, which would have broken half the bones in this grandmother's body had I been a tenth of a second slower and not already had a grip on the door. I push Jake back and apologize profusely, and, for some reason I will never understand, the younger woman smiles at me as if it's okay. This may have been because Jake was back in sobbing mode, and stumbling away. I assume she assumed we were drunk. I'm not sure how that makes it okay, but since this situation was entirely my fault, I was taking what I could get.
Here's Jake:
And this is, beyond any other, the reason I will never do acid again. I also have absolutely no recollection of this whatsoever.


http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.cgi?New&S1=2
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Lazy_eye » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Surā-meraya-majja-pamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhā-padaṃ samādiyāmi.
I take upon myself the precept for abstaining from
Recreational intoxicants that lead to carelessness.

pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
the rule is about substances which lead to heedlessness, so are intoxicants, as it is a substance which alters the mind (you don't see things in a clear way as when you are not on the substance).
it mentions alcohol as that is how the origin rule in the vinaya came about, but it would also include any substance which would lead to a mind-state not within the bounds of a sober person.
but simple application of the great standard... and you have anything which alters the mind not only alcohol, which is not for a medicinal purpose included.


Yes, you're probably right, My point, I guess, was that LSD and similar substances produce effects which are quite different from those triggered by alcohol, and the Buddha's definition of intoxicants seems clearly to refer to alcohol.

Certain meditative practices also lead to mind states that would not be conducive to, say, driving a car -- so the fact that something engenders an unusual mind state may not (in itself) necessarily mean that it's not beneficial.

LSD-engendered states may be more like intense concentration or absorption, as opposed to the sort of freewheeling recklessness unleashed by drink.
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Viscid » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:33 pm

LSD-engendered states may be more like intense concentration or absorption, as opposed to the sort of freewheeling recklessness unleashed by drink.


Sounds like someone did acid in his heyday. (high-five)

It's quite a different experience from alcohol-- it feels like 'cheating' your way into absorption. I highly doubt The Buddha would have encouraged his monks to trip balls.
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:40 pm

If LSD is Nirvāṇa, was Dr. Timothy Leary really Maitreya Buddha?

Image
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Moth » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:01 pm

Telling someone that LSD is an intoxicant is probably not the correct approach, because anyone who has done LSD proper (i.e right set and setting, right respect and expectation) knows that it is quite the opposite. The reason I gave up psychedelic drugs after using them for years was that I began to realize that the experience simply was not sustainable. On the trip you feel as if you've understood everything, you've realized your faults and overcome them, and you have arrived at peace, etc. However after the trip wears off you go right back to your old habits. This should be a clear enough indication that you in fact did not understand everything, and certainly did no attain Nibbana, though you deluded yourself into believing you had (I have certainly done this before). Thus the real risk of psychedelics is delusion, not intoxication. One is not that likely to do immoral things unless they are predisposed, rather more they are likely to gain some false sense of attainment. As Ajahn Jayasaro once aptly quoted, "If drugs expand the mind, than an ignorant mind will get expanded ignorance." There is also a great degree of pleasure-seeking involved with its ingestion as well as craving when one is off the Entheogen. It is by no means the type of craving that is typically associated with drugs, i.e that of opium, however it is there and though it may be subtle it is still quite powerful. For example, when I mediate now I have the bad habit of hoping to achieve some kind of psychedelic state. Often I will also reminisce about my trips and long for that experience again, simply because it was so seemingly profound.

I cannot say that psychedelics are bad, the experience they impart is very much beyond my understanding so I am not in a position to judge them. They also gave me a first-hand glimpse of anatta, long before I had read the Buddha's teachings, and this helped me appreciate the teachings even more when I found them. Ultimately though the greatest result I found from psychedelics was finding the Dhamma, and after that I had no more need for them. The Noble Eightfold Path is a far greater vehicle. I have met many people who continue to use psychedelics as their means of reaching enlightenment and they all seem to become more and more confused. The thing about psychedelics is that they only lead to more questions, where as the Dhamma leads to the cessation of questions. Psychonauts are always speculating, always revising their theories of everything, and I was no different. However, the Dhamma only present answers, not more questions, and if you follow it for awhile you will lose this need to question everything, because the answers have been given to you and they are more than satisfactory--now it is just a matter of living by them so that you can see them for yourself.

The rabbit hole is infinite...I have tripped perhaps ~40 times on all sorts of psychedelics, the most notable being DMT. After the first few times I really gained no deeper understanding...you come to the same conclusion each time and then you forget it when it wears off. The experience is essentially a striping down of dualities, self/other, subject/object, life/death, etc, the peak realization being that there is no self and that everything is the same (in regards to the domain of namarupa). It is a breaking down of concepts. You realize this (if you've taken enough), think you've solved it all, and then hours later you're back to where you began, selfish as ever. After awhile the pattern becomes quite familiar and you realize you're getting nowhere. Studying and living by the Dhamma even for a few months taught me so much more than all those trips combined, and this is in no way an exaggeration. The thing about psychedelics is that its just perception unfiltered, there's no guiding teacher to point out what you should focus on and what you should not and thus you waste a lot of time in self-indulgent loops. The Dhamma is concise, refined, exact and the to the point. The first chapter of the Majjhima Nikaya says in a few pages what it took me years to realize from LSD. I suppose one has to understand these sort of things for themselves though. I too started a psychedelics thread here and was quite defensive of them, but eventually after trying again a few times it became unmistakably clear that they were in all ways inferior to the Dhamma, and ultimately a distraction.

One thing I often tell people who ask me about this is that the beauty of Sila is far greater than anything you will experience through drugs. The psychedelic state is like a lighting bolt, a flash of light, it comes and it goes and afterwards everything seems quite dull in comparison. Sila is gradual, it slowly ripens but as it does everything becomes progressively more and more beautiful. Psychedelics can at best offer a glimpse of selflessness, however Sila is the practice of living by it, and it is in this way that it truly develops and remains. One quickly understands the pleasing themselves is limited and futile, and that loving all beings is the only way to truly be happy. Giving and expecting nothing in return, helping others even at the expense of yourself, sympathetic joy, loving kindness, these things offer a real means of escaping the self, one which is far greater than any psychedelic experience. Use that money you would have spent on acid and give it to someone who doesn't even have food to eat, and live by your precepts confidently rather than dwelling in their gray areas.

May you be happy.
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:58 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Yes, you're probably right, My point, I guess, was that LSD and similar substances produce effects which are quite different from those triggered by alcohol, and the Buddha's definition of intoxicants seems clearly to refer to alcohol.

Certain meditative practices also lead to mind states that would not be conducive to, say, driving a car -- so the fact that something engenders an unusual mind state may not (in itself) necessarily mean that it's not beneficial.

LSD-engendered states may be more like intense concentration or absorption, as opposed to the sort of freewheeling recklessness unleashed by drink.

the produced result is intoxication, which is a state of heedlessness, intoxication may differ between intoxicants but it is still intoxication.
and the big difference is that you are wilfully imbibing a substance which produces intoxication, and I think you would find the actual effect of a person in deep meditation and LSD are not going to be the same.

but here is a more thorough breakdown for you.
Surā-meraya-majja-pamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhā-padaṃ samādiyāmi.
I take upon myself the precept for abstaining from recreational intoxicants that lead to carelessness.
Surāmeraya – rum & spirits.
Surā - intoxicating liquor.
meraya - fermented liquor.
Majja - an intoxicant.
Pamāda - negligence; indolence; remissness; carelessness.
ṭhānā - place; locality; condition; reason; office; cause;
certainly alcoholic substance is mentioned (Surāmeraya ), but as you can see it is not the only intoxicant covered (majja).
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby beeblebrox » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:32 pm

Moth, your post is quite excellent. Thanks for sharing it. :anjali:
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Moth » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:34 pm

the produced result is intoxication, which is a state of heedlessness


Alcohol produces an effect that is obviously careless and uninhabited. So does opium, so does datura, so does marijuana, so does cocaine, etc. Psychedelics produce quite the opposite, you are ultra-aware. If you performed an immoral act whilst on psychedelics the realization of what you had done, and the effect it has had/is having on yourself and others would be exponentiated a hundredfold. If you did the same thing on alcohol you could quite easily brush it off without a moment's remorse. You simply cannot lump these two things together under the same definition of producing "carelessness/heedlessness" because they are drastically different. That being said, I do not endorse psychedelics, my point is that you are dismissing them for the wrong reason and thus the OP is going to disregard this kind of advice as it likely contradicts his own experience.
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:00 pm

Moth wrote:
the produced result is intoxication, which is a state of heedlessness


Alcohol produces an effect that is obviously careless, carefree, uninhabited, etc. So does opium, so does datura, so does cocaine, etc. Psychedelics produce quite the opposite, you are ultra-aware. If you performed an immoral act whilst on psychedelics the realization of what you had done, and the effect it has had/is having on yourself and others would be exponentiation a hundred-fold. If you did the same thing on alcohol you could quite easily brush it off without a moment's remorse. You simply cannot lump these two things together under the same definition of producing "carelessness/heedlessness" because they are drastically different. That being said, I do not endorse psychedelics, my point is that you are dismissing them for the wrong reason and thus the OP is going to disregard this kind of advice as it contradicts his own experience.

So they don't bring about hallucinations i.e.visuals with open or closed eyes, or distorted perceptions, altered states of mind?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Moth » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:04 pm

So they don't bring about hallucinations i.e.visuals with open or closed eyes, or distorted perceptions, altered states of mind?


This is hardly the point. There is a misconception that the most notable effect of LSD is that you have all sorts of interesting and surreal visions. These effects are far more akin to something like Datura, which is defined as a deliriant rather than a psychedelic. The point of psychedelics is not what you see, rather it is your sudden capacity to become aware of your own mental and behavioral patterns, to recognize the similarities rather than differences between yourself and others, and ultimately to deconstruct your own personality until you arrive and what appears to be a kind of emptiness. The associations you once considered to be your "self" are discarded, albeit momentarily, and one is forced to let go of themselves and surrender to the experience. This is likely why people often incorrectly believe that they have attained something, (hopefully) not because they are seeing lots of colors and lights when then they close their eyes. Psychedelics show the user a lot more than they are capable of understanding, and unfortunately the more inexperienced are only able to verbalize the more shallow aspects, i.e distortions of perception. Alas, I fear that I am endorsing psychedelics by defending them, I only feel that it is inaccurate and unbeneficial (in regards to steering someone away from them) to dismiss them as states of heedlessness. The matter is much more subtle.

kirk5a does bring up a good point, that is that many users take them in the same regard with which they take other, more recreational drugs and end up doing stupid things because they weren't prepared for it. My argument is limited to proper use, not improper, and in that sense is hindered. As they say in computer programming, garbage in garbage out. If there was a pill that induced the state of neither perception nor non perception (not to imply that LSD produces this state) and a seventeen year old took it at a party, perhaps he might do something stupid. However, we cannot condemn that state on the basis of his/her reaction. The benefit of meditative absorption is that one must be free from the hindrances in order to attain the experience, where as psychedelics can be taken by anyone, and the more hindered they are the more unpleasant the experience will be, as they are likely to resist it. It could be argued that, on this basis, one shouldn't take psychedelics unless they were free from the hindrances, and if one were free from the hindrances it would be useless to take psychedelics--and I would agree. I will try to refrain from continuing this argument as to avoid the risk of encouraging others to explore this path. It should be recognized that these substances were originally used religiously by shamanic peoples, more often priests, who were trained how to understand and respect them. Many modern users are simply misguided pleasure-seekers.
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:59 pm

1q2aw3 wrote:I am by no means propagating usage of psychedelics etc etc.

For those who know how does it work. How do you think taking entheogens affects karma? Would you as followers of Buddhism would be for or against the usage of them?


The idea is to learn how your own mind works, and then to gain control of it, and teach it how to behave in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path, for the express purpose of ending our suffering.

What would be the point of doing anything to increase our suffering?

It should be intuitively obvious that is the wrong way to go. Some would say such actions are non-beneficial if not insane. :rolleye:
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Re: Entheogens and Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:03 pm

Moth wrote:
So they don't bring about hallucinations i.e.visuals with open or closed eyes, or distorted perceptions, altered states of mind?


This is hardly the point.

that is exactly the point in the context of as a follower of the Buddha.

an intoxicant intoxicated doesn't matter if it is to the left or to the right, it intoxicates.

and the Buddha says...
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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