Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
User avatar
adosa
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby adosa » Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:58 pm

Greetings all,

I'm not sure under which forum this topic should go so feel free to move it if necessary.

My understanding is that Stream-entry is the "lowest" Noble attainment that guarantees safe-haven from states of perdition. But what do the more learned members say about the following text? I'm not sure off hand which Sutta this came from but it seems to me that if one is a Faith-follower and/or a Dhamma-follower, and since one is assured of attaining Stream-entry prior to death, then these two attainments would also guarantee safe-haven from states of perdition. I'm sure my interpretation is flawed and that's why I ask the question. Please correct me if and where I am wrong.

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear
… The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is impermanent, changing,
becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is
called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the
plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of
doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in
the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of
stream-entry.

“One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient
degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed
course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the
worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in
hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away
without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.


So what characteristics define a Faith-follower? A Dhamma-follower? How do they differ from a Stream-enterer?

Could it be that many of the good people here are just that and at the time of death sufficient wisdom will arise and in a "flash" Stream-entry will be attained?

I ask these questions because I see the practice as akin to climbing a ladder. I'd like to review what characteristics I am lacking that still have me on the ground and not on the first rung. If I can develop a practice that is in the realm of the Faith-follower or Dhamma-follower then I can put aside the notion of Stream-entry and just practice.

Thank you in advance for the discussion.

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:59 pm

Greetings adosa,

I think your intention behind wanting to know this is very good... it is good to try to benchmark one's progress realistically against the framework established in the suttas and work to remedy the gaps between the current state and nobility.

As for you initial analysis, I see nothing wrong with that either.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Contact:

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby Jechbi » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:45 am

adosa wrote:... I can put aside the notion of Stream-entry and just practice.

:thumbsup:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 7801
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby cooran » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:19 am

Hellol adosa,

I think you are quoting SN 25.5 Vedana Sutta Feeling?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Read the section on Jhāna and the Attainment of Stream-entry in The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
adosa
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby adosa » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:24 pm

Thanks Chris for the links

A couple of characteristics I was able to glean from your last link help define a Faith-follower and / or a Dhamma-follower.

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm

From this, we can reasonably suppose that in the preliminary stage leading up to stream-entry the aspirant will need firm faith in the Three Jewels (the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha) and scrupulous observance of the Five Precepts.


the actual movement from the stage of a worldling to that of a path-attainer is driven by either strong conviction or a probing spirit of inquiry, which respectively determine whether the aspirant is to become a faith-follower or a Dhamma-follower.


Since the lay stream-enterer or once-returner is thus well equipped with the wisdom of insight but is not typically described as a jhāna attainer, this implies that attainment of jhāna is not normally expected or required of him. From this we can also conclude that at these early stages of the path liberative wisdom does not depend on a supporting base of jhāna.


Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being proficient in the jhānas


It seems what is really required at this level is faith and /or "a probing spirit of inquiry", hearing the true dhamma, association with the wise, and an adherence to the Five Precepts. However attainment of the jhanas do not appear to be necessary.

Thanks

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:06 am

adosa wrote:Greetings all,

I'm not sure under which forum this topic should go so feel free to move it if necessary.

My understanding is that Stream-entry is the "lowest" Noble attainment that guarantees safe-haven from states of perdition. But what do the more learned members say about the following text? I'm not sure off hand which Sutta this came from but it seems to me that if one is a Faith-follower and/or a Dhamma-follower, and since one is assured of attaining Stream-entry prior to death, then these two attainments would also guarantee safe-haven from states of perdition. I'm sure my interpretation is flawed and that's why I ask the question. Please correct me if and where I am wrong.

At Sāvatthī. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The ear
… The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is impermanent, changing,
becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is
called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the
plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of
doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in
the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of
stream-entry.

“One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient
degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed
course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the
worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in
hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away
without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.


So what characteristics define a Faith-follower? A Dhamma-follower? How do they differ from a Stream-enterer?

Could it be that many of the good people here are just that and at the time of death sufficient wisdom will arise and in a "flash" Stream-entry will be attained?

I ask these questions because I see the practice as akin to climbing a ladder. I'd like to review what characteristics I am lacking that still have me on the ground and not on the first rung. If I can develop a practice that is in the realm of the Faith-follower or Dhamma-follower then I can put aside the notion of Stream-entry and just practice.

Thank you in advance for the discussion.

adosa


I was going to start a thread on the subject of Dhamma/faith follower and I find you have already started one. :smile:

I personally think that the benchmark we set ourselves (or at least the commentaries set) is much to high. We seem to want people who have just entered the stream and not even realised the fruit, to behave like perfect human being's. The Buddha makes clear in the suttas that dhamma/faith followers are still subject to anger & lust and nowhere does it actually say that their sila is perfect. In fact all we are told about their sila, is that they are incapable of committing offences that would lead to the lower worlds.

I think the problem we have is that the Buddha is no longer around to reassure us of our attainment and until we realise the fruit, we don't actually know where we are. So I suppose that even if there are many Dhamma or faith followers out there - they should all practice as if they are not - just to be safe. Having said that a certain amount of enthusiasm & joy can be generated, knowing that entering the path is not as unattainable as some would have us believe.

BTW - path/fruit according to the suttas do not have to follow each other immediately - hence - Dhamma follower, faith follower.

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2592
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby ground » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:14 am

adosa wrote:... I can put aside the notion of Stream-entry and just practice.


... and rejoice in the attainments of others.

kind regards

Nyana
Posts: 2227
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby Nyana » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:20 am

adosa wrote:So what characteristics define a Faith-follower? A Dhamma-follower? How do they differ from a Stream-enterer?

Ven. Kheminda has also written on this subject, which is the first part of his book titled Path, Fruit, and Nibbāna.

All the best,

Geoff

User avatar
legolas
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:58 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:15 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
adosa wrote:So what characteristics define a Faith-follower? A Dhamma-follower? How do they differ from a Stream-enterer?

Ven. Kheminda has also written on this subject, which is the first part of his book titled Path, Fruit, and Nibbāna.

All the best,

Geoff


Thanks - good link.

rowyourboat
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: London, UK

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:42 pm

Hi Adosa

Here's a summary of the okkanta samyutta relating to dhammanusarins and saddhanusarins:

In terms of their levels of understanding, I have summarised several suttas as they repeat the same formula, but with different types of knoweldge (see below).

(Rupa)
Rupa (matter) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

(Nama)
Phassa (contact) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Vedana (feelings) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Sanna (concepts/labels) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Cetana (intentions) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Tanha (craving) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

(both Nama and Rupa)
Dhathu (patavi-earth, apo-water, tejo-fire, vayo-air, akasa-space, vinnana-consciousness) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Salayatana (6 Sense organs) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
Khanda (5 aggregates) is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: [I believe these suttas represent the types of Dhamma/teachings that need to be discussed and 'well penetrated in terms of view']
one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill.

He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades.

He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill.
He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades.
He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."


Okkanta-samyutta — Entering

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#okkanta


Bhikkhus, who is the person living according to the Teaching (dhamma-follower). : Here, bhikkhus, a certain person does not experience those immaterial attainments with the body. His desires are not destroyed, not seeing with wisdom. He is convinced in the Teaching of the Thus Gone One to a certain extent, by wisely thinking about it. Yet to him there are the faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom [so he is practicing]. To this one is said, living according to the Teaching. To this bhikkhu too I say, there is something to be done diligently. What is the reason: Bhikkhus, this one partaking of suitable dwellings, associating good friends, and with the development of his faculties, for whatever reason this clansman left the household and became homeless, that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, would realize and abide. Seeing these good results for diligence (appamada) I tell this bhikkhu to be diligent.

Bhikkhus, who is the person living according to faith (faith-follower)? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not experience the immaterial attainments with the body. His desires are not destroyed, not seeing with wisdom. He has some faith and love for the Thus Gone One Yet to him there are the faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. To this one is said, living according to faith. To this bhikkhu too I say, there is something to be done diligently. What is the reason: Bhikkhus, this one partaking of suitable dwellings, associating good friends, and with the development of his faculties, for whatever reason this clansman left the household and became homeless, that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, will realize. Seeing these good results for diligence, I tell this bhikkhu to be diligent.


http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta ... ri-e1.html

I think, since that Right Concentration, has been defined as 1 to 4th jhana, it will not be amiss to work towards those. It becomes 'right' because there is an understanding that all of what makes up a jhana is impermanent, unsatisfactry and not self (me or mine).

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
adosa
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby adosa » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:39 pm

Thanks for the replies. I posted this about two years ago. So what offenses are those that lead to the lower realms? Is breaking a precept one such offense? Or does it depend on the precept (i.e. killing vs. having a beer)?

Its been awhile since I reviewed this information so thanks for jogging the memory.... :|

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

rowyourboat
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: London, UK

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:30 am

Hi Adosa,

The five precepts, if broken, seem pretty serious (see below Vipaka sutta), however the results of these are not beyond our control (see next sutta, below). The best guarantee against hellish realms is of course, stream entry.

With metta

Matheesha
   
AN 8.40 PTS: A iv 247
Vipaka Sutta: Results
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2010
"Monks, the taking of life — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.

"Stealing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from stealing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the loss of one's wealth.

"Illicit sexual behavior — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from illicit sexual behavior is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to rivalry & revenge.

"Telling falsehoods — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from telling falsehoods is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to being falsely accused.

"Divisive tale-bearing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from divisive tale-bearing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the breaking of one's friendships.

"Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds.

"Frivolous chattering — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from frivolous chattering is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to words that aren't worth taking to heart.

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

See also: AN 4.111, as an example of harsh training.

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress.

"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable.[1] A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"Yes, lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in the cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink."

"Now suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"No, lord. Why is that? There being a great mass of water in the River Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink."

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in the body, [2] undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind [i.e., painful feelings can invade the mind and stay there], undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering.   A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in the body,[3] developed in virtue, developed in mind [i.e., painful feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there], developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the unlimited. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"There is the case where a certain person is thrown into jail for half a dollar (kahapana), is thrown into jail for a dollar, is thrown into jail for one hundred dollars. And there is the case where another person is not thrown into jail for half a dollar, is not thrown into jail for a dollar, is not thrown into jail for one hundred dollars. Now what sort of person is thrown into jail for half a dollar... for a dollar... for one hundred dollars? There is the case where a person is poor, of little wealth, of few possessions. This is the sort of person who is thrown into jail for half a dollar... for a dollar... for one hundred dollars. And what sort of person is not thrown into jail for half a dollar... for a dollar... for one hundred dollars? There is the case where a person is wealthy, with many belongings, many possessions. This is the sort of person who is not thrown into jail for half a dollar... for a dollar... for one hundred dollars.

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"It's just as when a goat butcher is empowered to beat or bind or slay or treat as he likes a certain person who steals a goat, but is not empowered to beat or bind or slay or treat as he likes another person who steals a goat. Now, when what sort of person has stolen a goat is the goat butcher empowered to beat him or bind him or slay him or treat him as he likes? There is the case where a person is poor, of little wealth, of few possessions. This is the sort of person who, when he has stolen a goat, the goat butcher is empowered to beat or bind or slay or treat as he likes. And when what sort of person has stolen a goat is the goat butcher not empowered to beat him or bind him or slay him or treat him as he likes? There is the case where a person is wealthy, with many belongings, many possessions; a king or a king's minister. This is the sort of person who, when he has stolen a goat, the goat butcher is not empowered to beat or bind or slay or treat as he likes. All he can do is go with his hands clasped before his heart and beg: 'Please, dear sir, give me a goat or the price of a goat.'

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

"Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in [contemplating] the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress."

Notes

1.
Immeasurable concentration. See also AN 3.65.
2.
I.e., pleasant feelings can invade the mind and stay there — see MN 36.
3.
I.e., pleasant feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there.
See also: MN 86; MN 101; AN 3.33; AN 10.208.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
adosa
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby adosa » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:06 pm

Thanks Matheesha,

So I guess "incapable of committing any offenses that would lead to the lower realms" as much as anything, depends on the development of the individual. I'd have to imagine that a Dhamma-follower or a Faith-follower still, on occasion, breaks a precept but makes every effort not to.

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

rowyourboat
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: London, UK

Re: Characteristics of Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:34 pm

adosa wrote:Thanks Matheesha,

So I guess "incapable of committing any offenses that would lead to the lower realms" as much as anything, depends on the development of the individual. I'd have to imagine that a Dhamma-follower or a Faith-follower still, on occasion, breaks a precept but makes every effort not to.

adosa


Yes, I would imagine so.


But know that such labels (especially if we put them on ourselves) are 'sakkaya-ditti' as well- views arrived at, about the nature of the 5 aggregates. (well, that is at least, on way of seeing it). There are no stream entrants etc as there are only aggregates.

Better to let go, keep it simply and continue practice. But of course, they help to serve as milestones -to guide the way- rather than be destinations in themselves.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


Return to “Open Dhamma”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Anagarika and 9 guests