Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Sarva » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:44 am

Last edited by Sarva on Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:48 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Sarva » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:54 am

Thanks Retro,
Yes you did recommend his work and I am grateful you did, working my way through them! :smile:
Nothing above do I 'own', I am even liberated from that burden it seems :sage: . The above could be seen as a summary of my understanding through materials I have read online.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Dmytro » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:03 am

Hi Sarva,

Thank you for the post.

I would like to draw your attention to Cetana sutta, which describes the volition-consciousness (sankhara-vinnana) link of Conditioned Arising.

It is the stationing of consciousness which matters:

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

When consciousness is unstationed (anupatthita), consciousness and nama-rupa (mentality-materiality), are no longer bound together, like two sheaves of reeds:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Just as if a skilled butcher or butcher's apprentice, having killed a cow, were to carve it up with a sharp carving knife so that — without damaging the substance of the inner flesh, without damaging the substance of the outer hide — he would cut, sever, & detach only the skin muscles, connective tissues, & attachments in between. Having cut, severed, & detached the outer skin, and then covering the cow again with that very skin, if he were to say that the cow was joined to the skin just as it had been: would he be speaking rightly?"

"No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if the skilled butcher or butcher's apprentice, having killed a cow, were to ... cut, sever, & detach only the skin muscles, connective tissues, & attachments in between; and ... having covered the cow again with that very skin, then no matter how much he might say that the cow was joined to the skin just as it had been, the cow would still be disjoined from the skin."

"This simile, sisters, I have given to convey a message. The message is this: The substance of the inner flesh stands for the six internal media; the substance of the outer hide, for the six external media. The skin muscles, connective tissues, & attachments in between stand for passion & delight. And the sharp knife stands for noble discernment — the noble discernment that cuts, severs, & detaches the defilements, fetters, & bonds in between.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Consciousness no longer alters due to changes of five aggregates (see Upada-paritassana sutta, SN 22.7).

Best wishes, Dmytro


Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Sarva » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:15 am

Thanks a lot Dymytro,
I wasn't aware of the second and third (Nandakovada Sutta) quotations and put together as you have, they provide a useful insight to how one should approach this topic! I will read them in full.

I also read a post by you today, on a similar topic which was useful. :)

Metta.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1645
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Zom » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:22 am


User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Prasadachitta » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:06 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Nyana » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:52 pm


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Nyana » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:07 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:55 pm


User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:29 am

The cessation of body doesn't occur after we pass away. But right at the moment that practitioner fully realize there is no body in this called body. They will see this clearly in their vipassana. Once they know how does it feel as having no body in their meditation, when they wake up from their meditation, the old concept will come back again. However, now it come back just as an old friend. If before the notion of body grip strongly inside you as something absolutely you have this body, now you can see that actually this meat and bone has no different with the tree besides the road. You have a through knowing you don't have body.

However, you will have a thought you have a body although you know there is no body. In this case, we need to get used with the new wisdom that we just gain using the power of Samantha during meditation and outside meditation.

Soon or later, that thought of body will also disappear.

You feel extremely light during your daily life.

This is same with mind, feeling, perception etc.

They are there. But there are just another clouds in the sky. No feeling at all there are mine. Because you absolutely have this feeling this is not mine, you reach the cessation of mind, feeling, perception, body etc.

Cessation of mind, body, perception has nothing to do with death.

If we cannot reached that in this life, after you die you will still have another body, another mind, another perception, where all of them come purely from the misconception of all of them.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5517
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Aloka » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:49 am

Hi Sarva,

As well as the Buddhadasa Paticcasamuppada resource you mentioned earlier, you might like to look at 'Dependent Origination' by Ven P.A. Payutto (considered to be Thailand's foremost Buddhist scholar)



Kind wishes

Aloka

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:04 am


Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Sarva » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:34 am

Thanks Aloka and Mike,
I will look forward to reading these files you share (or others might suggest), I plan to cling :quote: to as much DO reading as I can as I am currently finding it very useful. :smile:
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby ground » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:38 am


Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Sarva » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:02 pm

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby vinasp » Tue May 01, 2012 6:16 am

Hi Sarva,

Thanks for setting out your present understanding. The least that I can
do in return is to offer mine. I hope that it may be of some help to you.

[ Please note that this is my own interpretation, and differs from the
traditional understanding of the Nikaya teachings.]

Part 1.

Those who understand the DO formula as depicting rebirth usually follow
the "three lives" interpretation. They ignore the cessation of the links.

In such an interpretation, "form" can be ones actual body, and "name" can
be ones actual mental-functions (apart from consciousness) such as: feeling,
perception and volition. So consciousness and "name-form" together can be
understood as a person. The first two links, ignorance and volitional
formations, if they are included in the formula, represent the previous
life. The Mahanidana Sutta [DN 15] gives strong support to this sort of
interpretation.

There is no doubt that the teachings are meant to be understood in this
way, so such an understanding must be said to be correct.

However, if one focuses on the cessation of the links, then one is forced
to interpret many of the links in a different way. The "form" cannot be
ones actual body, the "name" cannot be actual mental-functions and the
"consciousness" cannot be ones actual consciousness.

In this way, the DO formula, and the rest of the teachings, support two
entirely different interpretations.

In my own studies, up to now, I have concentrated on the last eight links.
I believe that these can all cease - as a group - leaving the first four
links remaining. When these eight links have ceased what has been removed?

The "six-spheres", contact, feeling, Craving, clinging, the apparent
existence of a self and of course, suffering. I believe that the five
aggregates of clinging have also ceased. Also, some links may represent
particular wrong views, so these would be understood as having ceased.

So the first four links can probably be understood as the five aggregates.
The last eight links together are the "second-stage" of mental construction,
based on the belief that self is real. The first four links are the "first
stage" based on taking "I am" to be real. The words "conceit" and "conceiving"
are used to describe this first stage.

In the Five Nikaya's there are two teachings, the first ( probably earliest)
instructs monks to remove the view of self and the conceit "I am" together.
The second (later?) teaching is in two parts, the first instructs the monks
to remove the view of self, and the second part instructs on the removal of
the conceit "I am".

Part 2 to follow.

Regards, Vincent.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Nyana » Tue May 01, 2012 6:58 am


vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby vinasp » Tue May 01, 2012 8:08 am

Hi everyone,

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, [form] is impermanent, both of the past and
the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the
instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards [form] of the past;
he does not seek delight in [form] of the future; and he is practising
for revulsion towards [form] of the present, for its fading away and
cessation."

Replace [form] with [feeling], [perception], [volitional-formations],
and [consciousness].

From: Connected Discourses, Bhikkhu Bodhi, page 867, SN 22.9

Regards, Vincent.

Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Postby Sarva » Tue May 01, 2012 4:53 pm

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86


Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine