Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

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Sam Vara
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Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by Sam Vara »

In yesterdays thread on the "Inquiry...on Literal Rebirth..." Bodhisvasti posed the question
What aggregate would craving be considered?
A couple of respondents said that any Sankhara could have, or be affected by craving.

I have no wish to re-open this debate and have no axe to grind here, but this got me wondering about where craving would be situated in "exhaustive" schemas such as the aggregates, or "The All": the six internal and external sense bases. I know it can affect any aspect of them, but where is it, so to speak, with regard to them? Do the Suttas ever explicitly indicate where craving falls in such schemata? And does anyone have any hints as to how it would be beneficial to regard this?

My initial naive thoughts are that craving would appear to be a type of Sankhara when talking about the aggregates; and of the sense base of the mind when dealing with the Salayatana. Does this make sense, and did the Buddha ever refer to it?

MN 137 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html has "Explorations of the intellect", but I'm not sure if this is the same thing at all...
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by daverupa »

Some exhaustive schemas for you:
SN 22.48 wrote:"Whatever <aggregate> — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the <aggregate> clinging-aggregate.
AN 4.199 wrote:"Thus there are 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. These are called the 36 craving-verbalizations. Thus, with 36 craving-verbalizations of this sort in the past, 36 in the future, and 36 in the present, there are 108 craving-verbalizations."
Craving isn't anywhere at all; any aggregate at all can count as such, yet would not so count in the case of the arahant despite being present.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by Sam Vara »

daverupa wrote:
SN 22.48 wrote:"Whatever <aggregate> — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: That is called the <aggregate> clinging-aggregate.
AN 4.199 wrote:"Thus there are 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. These are called the 36 craving-verbalizations. Thus, with 36 craving-verbalizations of this sort in the past, 36 in the future, and 36 in the present, there are 108 craving-verbalizations."
Craving isn't anywhere at all; any aggregate at all can count as such, yet would not so count in the case of the arahant despite being present.
Many thanks daverupa. I thought this one was going to overlooked in a flurry of "Open Dhamma" posts, and I would have to re-post it!

I can see how any aggregate could count as craving, in that they are "aggregates affected by craving". But what about "The All"? The Buddha said there is not, and cannot be, any meaningful reference to anything outside The All. But given that we can and do meaningfully refer to craving in one whom it has not been abandoned, in which sense-base does it make sense to locate it? This is obviously not a physical location - it is not possible to specify any physical location other than within specific sense bases which admit dimension - but the conceptual location of how it is categorised. If it can't be outside (i.e. something other than) The All, and it exists, then where in The All does it exist?
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by daverupa »

Sam Vega wrote:in which sense-base does it make sense to locate it?
It's not correct to ask which sense-base houses craving. Instead, consider that due to avijja, with sense-base + sense-input + vinnana there is contact --> feeling --> craving --> ...dukkha.
SN 12.52 wrote:"In one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena (or: phenomena that offer sustenance = the five aggregates), craving develops... Now, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases...
Craving can be located in this or that sense-apparatus as it arises, but it isn't "there" apart from the requisite activity on that sense-apparatus (see above, AN 4.199). Be wary of hypostatization...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by gavesako »

Buddhist Teahcings Six Senses SIXSENSE.MPG
http://youtu.be/q9E5-48pGwQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

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Craving can be located in this or that sense-apparatus as it arises, but it isn't "there" apart from the requisite activity on that sense-apparatus (see above, AN 4.199). Be wary of hypostatization...
Are any other phenomena "there"? In a sense that warrants their inclusion in The All, and which doesn't apply to craving?
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

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gavesako wrote:Buddhist Teahcings Six Senses SIXSENSE.MPG
http://youtu.be/q9E5-48pGwQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many thanks, Bhante. The sound-track on the video has:
Sensations arise, coloured by liking and disliking.
This would suggest that Vedana is best seen as an aspect of the sensation, rather than something originating in one specific sense. Is craving the same, given that Vedana can obviously exist without craving? And does this mean that craving is outside The All?

Thanissaro's commentary on the Sabba Sutta does not settle it:
Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to limit the use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to the six sense spheres and their objects. As the following discourse shows, this would also include the consciousness, contact, and feelings connected with the sense spheres and their objects. Nibbana would lie outside of the word, "all." This would fit in with another point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion is the highest of all dhammas (Iti 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even dispassion (Sn 4.6; Sn 4.10).
In the context of The All, where would Thanissaro put volitions of all types - including craving?
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by daverupa »

I'm still a little unclear on the confusion, Sam Vega.

We are to abandon passion for the All; craving isn't something extra 'out there', it simply functions with respect to the All, and being based thereon, is within that range. (In this connection, see SN 35.24.) We needn't delineate the minutia of craving throughout these innumerable media (the AN passage above does this admirably enough for practical purposes), and the mental sense is a rather massive category anyway, a field ripe for papanca-sanna-sankha.

Along these lines, rather than say that craving is in someone (your "given that we can and do meaningfully refer to craving in one whom it has not been abandoned"), we would want to say that for a given puthujjana, craving still functioned. This function would be given as paticcasamuppada.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by Nyana »

Sam Vega wrote:I have no wish to re-open this debate and have no axe to grind here, but this got me wondering about where craving would be situated in "exhaustive" schemas such as the aggregates, or "The All": the six internal and external sense bases. I know it can affect any aspect of them, but where is it, so to speak, with regard to them? Do the Suttas ever explicitly indicate where craving falls in such schemata?
In the section on the four noble truths in DN 22 Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta, craving for each of the six kinds of sense objects is listed right after the six kinds of recognition (saññā) and the six kinds of intention (cetanā), and right before the six kinds of thought (vitakka) and the six kinds of evaluation (vicāra).
Sam Vega wrote:And does anyone have any hints as to how it would be beneficial to regard this?
By relying on the commentarial system which includes craving in the fabrications aggregate (saṅkhārakkhandha), the mental phenomena sense sphere (dhammāyatana), and the mental phenomena component (dhammadhātu).
Sam Vega wrote:My initial naive thoughts are that craving would appear to be a type of Sankhara when talking about the aggregates; and of the sense base of the mind when dealing with the Salayatana. Does this make sense, and did the Buddha ever refer to it?
It makes sense. I don't think it's ever explicitly stated in the suttas as such, but the suttas weren't compiled for the purpose of systematic exposition.
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sam,
Sam Vega wrote:And does anyone have any hints as to how it would be beneficial to regard this?
Stepping back to the level of the aggregates for a moment, the khandas are sometimes regarded as "what we are", or as "the processes" that constitute what we are. I don't think either of these are quite correct.

From my perspective, it would be better to say that khandas are "what we take to be our self" - i.e. they are the objects of appropriation (upadana). Given that the five aggregates are not real (see Phena Sutta), it doesn't seem to matter to me which unreal classification we grant to craving.

What does matter, is that craving (like any sankhara) is anatta, anicca and dukkha... and as with the other potential objects/bundles of appropriation, it is best seen as such and laid down.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by Sam Vara »

daverupa, Nana, Retro,

Many thanks for your thoughts on this little problem of mine. Between you, you have been really helpful in helping me to clarify my thinking.

Retro, I was mainly thinking about Salayatana, but as ever your thoughts about the Khandas are expressed very clearly. Is there a post on here (or an article elsewhere, even) where you set out your views on the aggregates a bit more comprehensively?
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sam,

No one specific sutta, but the following discussion may be of interest or relevance, in which I called upon a few related suttas...

Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12178" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Craving and Sankharas/Salayatana

Post by Sam Vara »

Many thanks, Retro. Appreciated.
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