The mind by Ajahn Chah

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by danieLion »

bodom wrote:Hi danieLion
Other candidates?


Within the Thai tradition Buddadasa Bhikkhu often mentions Zen in his writings

Larry Rosenberg and Gil Fronsdal come to mind as well, both vipassana teachers with extensive backgrounds in the Zen tradition and have a Zen flavor to their teachings.

Larry Rosenberg
http://www.cimc.info/teachers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gil Fronsdal
http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/teachers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If we trust the source (and I do), we should no be surprised at similarities. Right?


All the varied traditions of Buddhism have non clinging and liberation as the final goal. Whether one takes the Theravadin or Zen path matters not as they all have the same destination.

:anjali:
Can't believe I forgot GIl.
metta
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ground
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

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All this mind talk is just reification of an idea and it provides conceptual support for those inclined to soul/mind theories and/or permanence. Being aware that all this thinking that entails those utterances is just consciousness and that consciousness arises and ceases and that its arising depends on the living body and that consciousness (3rd link) arises from not-knowing (1st link) mediated by formations (2nd link) may be helpful in this context.

Kind regards
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gavesako
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

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DarwidHalim wrote:Thanks Bhante for the alternative.

By the way, what is the main issue or disagreement between the translation in the magazine and the one that you provide. Basically, I can't see the difference.

What is the complain or issue about this labeling "Original Mind"?

The problem that I see is the Western translators (who were probably not that well grounded in Theravada tradition themselves) tend to take things out of context in order to make certain teachings more palatable to an eclectic Western audience. Such concepts as "primordial purity" or "Original Mind" have their own place and history in other traditions, and I am sure Ajahn Chah was not familiar with all that, he would have used them within the context of standard Theravada teachings and related them to his own experience.

It is better to read more of his talks and put it into that context, for example here talking about the mind:
Contemplate this: whoever it is who knows is the one who has to take responsibility for your sīla. Bring that awareness to watch over your actions and speech. That knowing, that awareness is what you use to watch over your practice. To keep sīla, you use that part of the mind which directs your actions and which leads you to do good and bad. You catch the villain and transform him into a sheriff or a mayor. Take hold of the wayward mind and bring it to serve and take responsibility for all your actions and speech. Look at this and contemplate it. The Buddha taught us to take care with our actions. Who is it who does the taking care? The body doesn't know anything; it just stands, walks around and so on. The hands are the same; they don't know anything. Before they touch or take hold of anything, there has to be someone who gives them orders. As they pick things up and put them down there has to be someone telling them what to do. The hands themselves aren't aware of anything; there has to be someone giving them orders. The mouth is the same - whatever it says, whether it tells the truth or lies, is rude or divisive, there must be someone telling it what to say.
The practice involves establishing sati, mindfulness, within this 'one who knows.' The 'one who knows' is that intention of mind, which previously motivated us to kill living beings, steal other people's property, indulge in illicit sex, lie, slander, say foolish and frivolous things and engage in all the kinds of unrestrained behaviour. The 'one who knows' led us to speak. It exists within the mind. Focus your mindfulness or sati - that constant recollectedness - on this 'one who knows.' Let the knowing look after your practice.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Path_Peace.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In another talk he says that we can't really trust this mind or the 'one who knows' because it knows wrongly, so it requires quite a lot of training to make it know things correctly. It is not just a matter of "dropping into primordial purity of our Buddha Nature".
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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retrofuturist
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
ground wrote:All this mind talk is just reification of an idea and it provides conceptual support for those inclined to soul/mind theories and/or permanence. Being aware that all this thinking that entails those utterances is just consciousness and that consciousness arises and ceases and that its arising depends on the living body and that consciousness (3rd link) arises from not-knowing (1st link) mediated by formations (2nd link) may be helpful in this context.
:goodpost:

:clap:

Bang on the mark.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

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gavesako wrote: Such concepts as "primordial purity" or "Original Mind" have their own place and history in other traditions, and I am sure Ajahn Chah was not familiar with all that, he would have used them within the context of standard Theravada teachings and related them to his own experience.
COmparing these 2 translations:
Magazine (3rd sentence):
[This mind] is intrinsically pure.

Other translation:
[This mind] is naturally peaceful.

I have a question here:
Can something naturally peaceful not intrinsically pure?
Can something intrinsically pure not naturally peaceful?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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gavesako
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by gavesako »

See http://mettarefuge.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... ha-nature/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Concluding this week’s theme of iconoclasm and “outside the Buddha-box” insight, I offer this essay by one of my favorite dharma teachers, Thanissaro Bhikkhu. The provocative title says it all: Freedom from Buddha Nature.

What? A Buddhist teacher who says that there is no innate, inherent Buddha nature? Isn’t that a cornerstone of Buddhist teaching? No, actually, this concept of a Buddha nature is not universal in Buddhism. The term is not even found in the Pali canon, the earliest teachings attributed to the Buddha. Nor is the idea of an inherent Buddha nature part of the Theravadan understanding of what the Buddha taught as the way to Awakening.

From the Theravadan viewpoint, there are problems with the metaphysical assumption of a Buddha nature:

If you assume a Buddha nature, you not only risk complacency but you also entangle yourself in metaphysical thorn patches: If something with an awakened nature can suffer, what good is it? How could something innately awakened become defiled? If your original Buddha nature became deluded, what’s to prevent it from becoming deluded after it’s re-awakened?
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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DarwidHalim
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by DarwidHalim »

gavesako wrote:
If you assume a Buddha nature, you not only risk complacency but you also entangle yourself in metaphysical thorn patches: If something with an awakened nature can suffer, what good is it? How could something innately awakened become defiled? If your original Buddha nature became deluded, what’s to prevent it from becoming deluded after it’s re-awakened?
If that view is maintained, then this sentence ("THe mind is naturally peaceful") also has a problem.

Because if mind is naturally peaceful, how can it also become disturb and not peaceful?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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mikenz66
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Darwid,
DarwidHalim wrote: If that view is maintained, then this sentence ("THe mind is naturally peaceful") also has a problem.
Who said the mind is naturally peaceful?

Are you thinking of this sutta? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."
:anjali:
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Mr Man
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by Mr Man »

gavesako wrote:

The problem that I see is the Western translators (who were probably not that well grounded in Theravada tradition themselves) tend to take things out of context in order to make certain teachings more palatable to an eclectic Western audience. Such concepts as "primordial purity" or "Original Mind" have their own place and history in other traditions, and I am sure Ajahn Chah was not familiar with all that, he would have used them within the context of standard Theravada teachings and related them to his own experience.

With respect Bhante, In my opinion the original translators (of "A taste of Freedom") had a good grasp of the context of Ajahn Chah's teaching. They were there and lived with him. What was the context of Ajahn Chah's teaching? Was he teaching for prosperity or to be comply with Theravada orthodoxy? Or was it for the immediate? To some extent I'm sure we are all guilty of trying to re-write Ajahn Chah into what we would like him to be. Unfortunately he is no lomger here to pop the bubbles.
:anjali:
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gavesako
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by gavesako »

DarwidHalim wrote:
gavesako wrote:
If you assume a Buddha nature, you not only risk complacency but you also entangle yourself in metaphysical thorn patches: If something with an awakened nature can suffer, what good is it? How could something innately awakened become defiled? If your original Buddha nature became deluded, what’s to prevent it from becoming deluded after it’s re-awakened?
If that view is maintained, then this sentence ("THe mind is naturally peaceful") also has a problem.

Because if mind is naturally peaceful, how can it also become disturb and not peaceful?

There is no problem in the Ajahn Chah quote because he is not referring to some supposed metaphysical "original purity" that got defiled at a later stage. Instead, he is just reflecting on the present moment and how, when there is ignorance in the mind, mental fabrications are created which lead (following the sequence of dependent arising) to craving and grasping -- and how this whole structure can be disbanded when there is clear seeing and mindfulness watching over our consciousness.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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bodom
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

Post by bodom »

There is no problem in the Ajahn Chah quote because he is not referring to some supposed metaphysical "original purity" that got defiled at a later stage. Instead, he is just reflecting on the present moment and how, when there is ignorance in the mind, mental fabrications are created which lead (following the sequence of dependent arising) to craving and grasping -- and how this whole structure can be disbanded when there is clear seeing and mindfulness watching over our consciousness.
:goodpost:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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gavesako
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

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Mr Man wrote:
gavesako wrote:

The problem that I see is the Western translators (who were probably not that well grounded in Theravada tradition themselves) tend to take things out of context in order to make certain teachings more palatable to an eclectic Western audience. Such concepts as "primordial purity" or "Original Mind" have their own place and history in other traditions, and I am sure Ajahn Chah was not familiar with all that, he would have used them within the context of standard Theravada teachings and related them to his own experience.

With respect Bhante, In my opinion the original translators (of "A taste of Freedom") had a good grasp of the context of Ajahn Chah's teaching. They were there and lived with him. What was the context of Ajahn Chah's teaching? Was he teaching for prosperity or to be comply with Theravada orthodoxy? Or was it for the immediate? To some extent I'm sure we are all guilty of trying to re-write Ajahn Chah into what we would like him to be. Unfortunately he is no lomger here to pop the bubbles.
:anjali:

If you read the memoirs of the early generation of Ajahn Chah's disciples (especially Paul Breiter's) it will become obvious that most of the young men who ended up ordaining and living with Ajahn Chah in those days knew quite a lot about "Drugs, Sex and Rock'n'Roll" and merely happened to stumble upon his monastery and were drawn by his charisma more than anything else. Often they had only very vague idea about this whole thing called "Theravada Buddhism" and English translations of the Pali Canon were hard to find in Wat Pah Pong or Wat Pah Nanachat. The underground classic was "I AM THAT" and another American book on Zen apparently. It was necessary to learn the Vinaya rules so they focused on that, but as for really learning about the whole culture and history of Theravada Buddhism, I am afraid that they neglected this aspect. As soon as they set up their own Western monastery they were no longer required to learn very much Thai and could function in their own English-speaking world. The Thai forest tradition is somewhat anti-intellectual and anti-scholastic so they main focus was the monastic routine and meditation practice. But what happened when these monks went back to the West to establish new branch monasteries was that -- after they lost their charismatic teacher Ajahn Chah -- they started to get involved in all kinds of other spiritual stuff which finally took them away from Theravada and the monastic life and they ended up disrobing. Those who stayed did gradually study more of the classic Theravada teachings and become quite well grounded in them, so that they can continue the process of transplanting the Sasana in the West.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

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gavesako wrote:
If you read the memoirs of the early generation of Ajahn Chah's disciples (especially Paul Breiter's) it will become obvious that most of the young men who ended up ordaining and living with Ajahn Chah in those days knew quite a lot about "Drugs, Sex and Rock'n'Roll" and merely happened to stumble upon his monastery and were drawn by his charisma more than anything else. Often they had only very vague idea about this whole thing called "Theravada Buddhism" and English translations of the Pali Canon were hard to find in Wat Pah Pong or Wat Pah Nanachat. The underground classic was "I AM THAT" and another American book on Zen apparently. It was necessary to learn the Vinaya rules so they focused on that, but as for really learning about the whole culture and history of Theravada Buddhism, I am afraid that they neglected this aspect. As soon as they set up their own Western monastery they were no longer required to learn very much Thai and could function in their own English-speaking world. The Thai forest tradition is somewhat anti-intellectual and anti-scholastic so they main focus was the monastic routine and meditation practice. But what happened when these monks went back to the West to establish new branch monasteries was that -- after they lost their charismatic teacher Ajahn Chah -- they started to get involved in all kinds of other spiritual stuff which finally took them away from Theravada and the monastic life and they ended up disrobing. Those who stayed did gradually study more of the classic Theravada teachings and become quite well grounded in them, so that they can continue the process of transplanting the Sasana in the West.
:goodpost:
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Mr Man
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

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gavesako wrote:
If you read the memoirs of the early generation of Ajahn Chah's disciples (especially Paul Breiter's) it will become obvious that most of the young men who ended up ordaining and living with Ajahn Chah in those days knew quite a lot about "Drugs, Sex and Rock'n'Roll" and merely happened to stumble upon his monastery and were drawn by his charisma more than anything else. Often they had only very vague idea about this whole thing called "Theravada Buddhism" and English translations of the Pali Canon were hard to find in Wat Pah Pong or Wat Pah Nanachat. The underground classic was "I AM THAT" and another American book on Zen apparently. It was necessary to learn the Vinaya rules so they focused on that, but as for really learning about the whole culture and history of Theravada Buddhism, I am afraid that they neglected this aspect. As soon as they set up their own Western monastery they were no longer required to learn very much Thai and could function in their own English-speaking world. The Thai forest tradition is somewhat anti-intellectual and anti-scholastic so they main focus was the monastic routine and meditation practice. But what happened when these monks went back to the West to establish new branch monasteries was that -- after they lost their charismatic teacher Ajahn Chah -- they started to get involved in all kinds of other spiritual stuff which finally took them away from Theravada and the monastic life and they ended up disrobing. Those who stayed did gradually study more of the classic Theravada teachings and become quite well grounded in them, so that they can continue the process of transplanting the Sasana in the West.

Bhante, in my opinion you have painted a very inaccurate picture of the early generation; many are still in robes and many of those who disrobed were certainly earnest and sincere. The emphasis of the training and the way that monks practiced was guided by Ajahn Chah. There was great love from the students for the teacher and from the teacher towards students like Paul Breiter. Translations like the translations found in "A Taste of Freedom" are what really helped to introduce the teachings of Ajahn Chah to the west and I personally feel a great sense of gratitude to those who first made these teachings available in English.

It seems like there has been a rise of interest in "Classic Theravada" over the last few years but I personally wouldn't see this as Ajahn Chah's legacy.

:anjali:
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gavesako
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Re: The mind by Ajahn Chah

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Of course they were the pioneers and had their role to play which we have to acknowledge. Also the early translations, although they can be improved upon (such as in the newly revised Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah), were very helpful to lots of people. On the other hand, there has been a somewhat "incomplete transmission" of Theravada Buddhism to the West through this particular tradition which is something that we are still reaping the results of today. Ajahn Chah and the other forest monks were able to live simply and focus mainly on meditation practice because they were doing so within the context of an established traditional Buddhist society with its values that they had been brought up with from a young age, so there were many things that were simply assumed and did not need to be explained. With the Westerners, however, there was a huge cultural gap and a great opportunity for misunderstandings and incomprehension of many traditional values -- even with the close contact with a genius teacher such as Ajahn Chah, this could not be avoided. So I am merely pointing this out because it becomes obvious when one learns about supposedly the same "Thai forest tradition" from two different sources and in two different languages, Thai and English. Until one does that, one can assume many things which do not really match the actual situation on the ground. (I am speaking from within this tradition itself.)
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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