The Buddha's Omniscience.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
stuka
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:37 am

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by stuka »

Will wrote:I prefer to think of "all-knowing" as being instantaneous, not simultaneous. The latter would give a very cluttered mind, even for a buddha. All he has to do is turn his attention to a subject or area and he will fully understand, instantly.

Too bad he didn't put to use everything he could just figure out instantly at will by magic about, say, computer science, aerospace technology, and mass communication.

:roll:
Last edited by stuka on Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Cittasanto »

Will wrote:I prefer to think of "all-knowing" as being instantaneous, not simultaneous. The latter would give a very cluttered mind, even for a buddha. All he has to do is turn his attention to a subject or area and he will fully understand, instantly.
not necesarily!
the turning his attention and the arising of knowledge would be simultaneous to the arising of attention focused in a new direction! not instantaneous to the thought I will move my attention! when the buddha decides where the attention is going the knowing would arise of that area not before!
some more in my next responce to Dhammanando!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Jason,
Elohim wrote:No. Even if one were to read MN 90 as I do, rendering sabbannu as "knowing the all," the Buddha's response still makes sense in that it clarifies his position by rejecting the type of omniscience Mahavira claimed but not his own knowing the all as per SN 35.23.
But what grounds are there for supposing that the sabba in sabbaññū is the same as the sabba of the Sabba Sutta (i.e., the 6 sense bases and their objects) other than Kalupahana's saying so?

Given what sabbaññū seems to have meant to the Buddha's contemporaries in general, and given the claims that the Buddha indubitably makes for his vast cognitive range (i.e., three knowledges, six higher knowledges, ten Tathagata powers etc.) why do you find Kalupahana's take to be more plausible than that of the commentaries?

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
the commentaries are not what the Buddha meant! they are what others think he meant! same goes for what the contemporaries think!
one question to ask here is is this what the buddha thought or what I think is meant due to sources outside the Buddha?
what if the buddha meant more than is supposed by some or most of the commentaries and meant what each of the views think? or what none of them think?
sabba as the six sense bases and as part of the "knowing the all" diminishes some of the omniscience assertions people place on the buddha while at the same time clarifying others I.E. these six sense bases are the all in knowing the all, so sabbannu could be more accurately rendered in this context as knowing himself fully. himself being the six sense bases! and considering it in light of MN71 where the four postures are mentioned in relation to the buddhas knowing the Satipatthana Sutta giving the four foundations of mindfulness, in relation to the four postures and focuses as a means to liberation, of the highest form noted (sammā-sambuddhassa) should also be considered!
here is couple of other questions! should the Suttas be taken individually and the meaning of them taken solely in the context of the individual sutta or should they be taken as a whole and the meaning of all the suttas be taken into account? and should what the commentaries say guide the understanding?
maybe the advice to the Kalamas could help?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:the commentaries are not what the Buddha meant!
Well, that's a matter of opinion, and you're not going to convince me by mere assertion.

In any case, I haven't in this thread been appealing to the commentaries' take on sabbaññū as if it were authoritative (as I would in the Classical Theravada forum) but merely as an interpretation that appears to me more probable than that proposed by Kalupahana and Elohim.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:the commentaries are not what the Buddha meant!
Well, that's a matter of opinion, and you're not going to convince me by mere assertion.
Who said I am trying to convince you?

I see more than one door to to knowing what is meant!
I have an idea! I share, others take it or leave it!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:Who said I am trying to convince you?
The exclamation mark in "the commentaries are not what the Buddha meant!" makes the sentence into a strongly declarative utterance. People usually make such utterances in full confidence that the listener or reader will be persuaded.
I have an idea! I share, others take it or leave it!
Okay, I guess this is one that I'll leave. :)

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Jason
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Jason »

Ven. Dhammanando,
Dhammanando wrote:But what grounds are there for supposing that the sabba in sabbaññū is the same as the sabba of the Sabba Sutta (i.e., the 6 sense bases and their objects) other than Kalupahana's saying so?
Kalupahana's opinion is one of the things I take into consideration. Another thing that I take into consideration is SN 35.23 where the Buddha defines precisely what he means by "sabba."

Jason
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6490
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Jason,
Elohim wrote:Kalupahana's opinion is one of the things I take into consideration. Another thing that I take into consideration is how the Buddha defines precisely what he means by "sabba" (SN 35.23).
Well, we should expect him to, given its importance in the development of right view and vipassanā-bhāvanā. But the precise defining of it that you refer to still doesn't establish any connection between the sabba of the the Sabba Sutta and the sabba of sabbaññū.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Dhammananda
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:Who said I am trying to convince you?
The exclamation mark in "the commentaries are not what the Buddha meant!" makes the sentence into a strongly declarative utterance. People usually make such utterances in full confidence that the listener or reader will be persuaded.
well the exclamation can be used for several different reasons, that being one.
one thing the exclamation isn't is a sentence end. and can be followed by a justifying note. or a warning of an error.
I am not confident I can persuade any, I'll leave that for them to do.
I have an idea! I share, others take it or leave it!
Okay, I guess this is one that I'll leave. :)

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu[/quote]

not often i see OK spelt nice to see as a reminder, it is one of those things I forget how to spell? :lol:
Metta
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Jason
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Jason »

Ven. Dhammanando,
Dhammanando wrote:Well, we should expect him to, given its importance in the development of right view and vipassanā-bhāvanā. But the precise defining of it that you refer to still doesn't establish any connection between the sabba of the the Sabba Sutta and the sabba of sabbaññū.
There is no substantial connection besides that it makes more sense to me in the context of verses such as, "I have overcome all, I know all, I am detached from all, I have given up all; I am liberated from moral defilements having eradicated craving" (Dhp 353).

Best wishes,

Jason
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
User avatar
Jason
Posts: 595
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Jason »

Everyone,

Well, after reviewing this thread, I thought I would add a few final thoughts. To begin with, I would like to state that my understanding of the Buddha's omniscience may not necessarily be correct, and I am the first to admit that I am somewhat biased in my "modern" approach to Buddhism. That being said, discussions like this (which I enjoy) are an excellent way to improve our understanding, or to see where our arguments are flawed.

I would also like to say that the I think the Ven. Dhammanando has certainly made some good points. one of which is that "... the commentarial view is that all knowable things are potentially accessible to [the Buddha's understanding, panna], but that they are not all simultaneously accessible." This then leads to the question of what is meant by a knowable thing, which, as Ven. Dhammanando explains, "is an important qualification, for nowhere is it asserted that all things are knowable things. And so the Buddha's "omniscience" as the commentators understand it, is far from being the Allah-like or Jehovah-like omniscience that some Mahayana Buddhists posit. For example, there must be at least some future things that are not knowable things, since for all future things to be knowable would require all future things to be predetermined, which would conflict with the Buddha's rejection of fatalism." I agree, and perhaps we can tackle this question in the future.

Another good point he made is that the idea of omniscience is possibly implied in the Buddha's response in MN 90; but, as it currently stands, my opinion is that in the context of the Buddha's omniscience, "knowing the all" is a more accurate rendering of sabbannu than "knowing all." As such, the Buddha's response in MN 90 still makes sense in that it clarifies his position by rejecting the type of omniscience Mahavira claimed but not his own knowing the all as per SN 35.23.

Not being a scholar of Pali, however, I am not able to establish a substantial connection between the sabba of the the Sabba Sutta and the sabba of sabbannu besides that it makes more sense to me in the context of verses such as, "I have overcome all, I know all, I am detached from all, I have given up all; I am liberated from moral defilements having eradicated craving" (Dhp 353). So, for now, I guess I will just have to leave it at that.

Sincerely,

Jason
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by Alex123 »

I don't know why this was posted here. I must have saved my reply and clicked on the wrong tab to post it.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The Buddha's Omniscience.

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote: For my argument, the fact of ability to know the future refutes the idea of totally free choice. If future is in theory, or when deliberately adverted to by the Buddha, is accurately knowable, that means that nothing can ever change it. The future can include the next hour, next minute or even a hypothetical situation.
Please do not be dragging this argument into other threads.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
LXNDR
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: A sad story of Vesali sutta (mass suicide)

Post by LXNDR »

from here

thank you robertk, the Commentary is ridiculous, they manage to explain everything

-------------------------------------------

it's not about omniscience, mind reading has more to do with intuition
[url=http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html]Smannaphala sutta[/url] (DN 2) wrote:
Mind Reading

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind. Just as if a young woman — or man — fond of ornaments, examining the reflection of her own face in a bright mirror or a bowl of clear water would know 'blemished' if it were blemished, or 'unblemished' if it were not. In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the awareness of other beings. He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion... a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind.
Uposatha sutta (KN : Ud 5.5) wrote:When the night was (yet further) advanced and the last watch had ended, as dawn was approaching and the night was drawing to a close, a third time the Venerable Ananda arose from his seat... and said to the Lord: "The night is far advanced, revered sir, the last watch has ended; dawn is approaching and the night is drawing to a close and the bhikkhus have been sitting for a long time. Revered sir, let the Lord recite the Patimokka to the bhikkhus."

"The gathering is not pure, Ananda."

Then the Venerable Mahamoggallana thought: "Concerning which person has the Lord said, 'The gathering is not pure, Ananda'?" And the Venerable Mahamoggallana, comprehending the minds of the whole Order of bhikkhus with his own mind, saw that person sitting in the midst of the Order of bhikkhus — immoral, wicked, of impure and suspect behavior, secretive in his acts, no recluse though pretending to be one, not practicing the holy life though pretending to do so, rotten within, lustful and corrupt. On seeing him he arose from his seat, approached that person, and said: "Get up, friend. You are seen by the Lord. You cannot live in communion with the bhikkhus." But that person remained silent.

A second time and a third time the Venerable Mahamoggallana told that person to get up, and a second time and a third time that person remained silent. Then the Venerable Mahamoggllana took that person by the arm, pulled him outside the gate, and bolted it. Then he approached the Lord and said: "Revered sir, I have ejected that person. The assembly is quite pure. Revered sir, let the Lord recite the Patimokkha to the bhikkhus."

"It is strange, Moggallana, it is remarkable, Moggallana, how that stupid person should have waited until he was taken by the arm."
Katuviya sutta (AN 3.126) wrote:At one time the Blessed One was abiding in the deer park in Isipatana in Benares. The Blessed One putting on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes entered Benares for the alms round and saw a certain bhikkhu going for alms, under a fig tree where cattle are bound. He was internally dissatisfied and his interests were turned out wards, forgetful, not aware and distracted the mind straying with uncontrolled mental faculties. Seeing him the Blessed One said: Bhikkhu, do not defile yourself. When you defile yourself an evil smell emanates and it is impossible that flies would not settle.

That bhikkhu advised by the Blessed One in this manner became remorseful. The Blessed One after going the alms round and after the meal was over addressed the bhikkhus: Bhikkhus, I put on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes entered Benares for the alms round and saw a certain bhikkhu going for alms, under a fig tree where cattle are bound. He was internally dissatisfied and his interests were turned out wards, forgetful, not aware and distracted, his mind straying with uncontrolled mental faculties. Seeing him I said: Bhikkhu, do not defile yourself. When you defile yourself an evil smell emanates and it is impossible that flies would not settle.

That bhikkhu advised by me became remorseful.

When this was said a certain bhikkhu said: Venerable sir, what is defiling, what is the evil smell and what are flies?

Bhikikhu, the defiling is covetousness, the evil smell is aversion and flies are evil demeritorious thoughts. That bhikkhu defiling himself and emanating an evil smell, that flies should not settle is not possible.

With unprotected eyes and ears and mental faculties uncontrolled,
Flies in the form of greedy thoughts will settle.
The defiled bhikkhu emanates evil smells
Far from extinction, he has destroyed bliss.

In village or in forest not achieving his inner peace,
The fool sets forth followed by flies.
He that is virtuous and wisely attached to appeasemment
Sleeps well having destroyed the flies.

theoretically he could have read the mind state of at least one monk with suicidal tendencies developing while teaching them unattractiveness of the body
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: A sad story of Vesali sutta (mass suicide)

Post by santa100 »

LXNDR wrote:he could have read the mind state of at least one monk while teaching them unattractiveness of the body
The Milindapanha and some quotes from Ven. Nagasena:
Ven. Nagasena: And so with those sixty Bhikkhus, they fell neither by the act of the Tathâgata nor of any one else, but solely by their own deed. Suppose, O king, a man were to give ambrosia to all the people, and they, eating of it, were to become healthy and long-lived and free from every bodily ill. But one man, on eating it, were by his own bad digestion, to die. Would then, O king, the man who gave away the ambrosia be guilty therein of any offence?

Ven. Nagasena: Just so, O king, does the Tathâgata present the gift of his ambrosia to the men and gods in the ten thousand world systems; and those beings who are capable of doing so are made wise by the nectar of his law, while they who are not are destroyed and fall. Food, O king, preserves the lives of all beings. But some who eat of it die of cholera. Is the man who feeds the hungry guilty therein of any offence?
Post Reply